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Thread: Another Dam! The Talkeetna Thus Time

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    Member Birdstrike's Avatar
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    Default Another Dam! The Talkeetna This Time

    Please tell me the state is not giving this company $millions to study whether we need another dam.
    Dams are being torn down in the rest of the country in hopes of reversing the damage they have done and being replaced by other power sources. Why does it seem hydropower in AK is a century behind?

    http://www.adn.com/article/20140930/...alkeetna-river

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    Member BlueMoose's Avatar
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    I am not a fan of any dam however I am a favor of developing resources and lowering the price a doing business. I guess it is a catch 22. Being that I love to raft, fish and camp bummer however if someone could lower the energy cost in Fairbanks, Delta, Healy and all places in between well.

    One of the things some people don't understand is the pain we feel in the Interior concerning energy cost. As much as I don't like to see any wilderness change in that area it will eventually happen. I wonder how long it would take if in fact people in Anchorage and the Valley started seeing $300 - $500 dollar a month electric bills to consider building a dam for .6 cent per KW versus the .17-24 cent per KW plus a fuel surcharge of sometime twice their electric bill.

    Not saying it is a good thing to have the dam just that one day certain forces will create the demand.

    Regards.

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    Member SkinnyD's Avatar
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    You heard the whining when their gas bills went up a few dollars in Anchorage... as Fairbanks folks said "Sign me up for that price!"
    Passing up shots on mergansers since 1992.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueMoose View Post
    I am not a fan of any dam however I am a favor of developing resources and lowering the price a doing business. I guess it is a catch 22. Being that I love to raft, fish and camp bummer however if someone could lower the energy cost in Fairbanks, Delta, Healy and all places in between well.

    One of the things some people don't understand is the pain we feel in the Interior concerning energy cost. As much as I don't like to see any wilderness change in that area it will eventually happen. I wonder how long it would take if in fact people in Anchorage and the Valley started seeing $300 - $500 dollar a month electric bills to consider building a dam for .6 cent per KW versus the .17-24 cent per KW plus a fuel surcharge of sometime twice their electric bill.

    Not saying it is a good thing to have the dam just that one day certain forces will create the demand.

    Regards.
    What do the folks in Anchorage and the Valley have to do with this?

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    Member BlueMoose's Avatar
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    Nothing I was simply stating that if in fact the bulk of the population in the state in this case Anchorage and the Valley were paying higher energy cost like we see that some form of resource development would have happened or would be happening to include a Gas Pipe Line and or a Dam. Sorry B-Strike for some what pimping your thread.

    My intent is not to ruffle feathers and or pit one group or region against another my point and intent was to point out that eventually a Dam and or new energy source will be a requirement.

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    Member Frostbitten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueMoose View Post
    Nothing I was simply stating that if in fact the bulk of the population in the state in this case Anchorage and the Valley were paying higher energy cost like we see that some form of resource development would have happened or would be happening to include a Gas Pipe Line and or a Dam. Sorry B-Strike for some what pimping your thread.

    My intent is not to ruffle feathers and or pit one group or region against another my point and intent was to point out that eventually a Dam and or new energy source will be a requirement.
    Roger that, and that's a fair point.

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    What other types of energy do folks recommend?

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    Well, how about a big NUCLEAR Power Plant.........???? People keep moving to Alaska, and People want their electric thingies.

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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    My Alaskan energy pipe dream: Coal and small nukes

    We have lots of low-sulfur coal that we sell to South Korea because we don't burn it here. The Healy Clean-Coal project was doomed from the get-go because you don't build power plants close to the fuel, you build them close to the consumer. That said, with the rail spur going in on Pt Mac I'd build a clean coal plant there with a 30 year expansion plan in place before the ground was broken. It's far cheaper (more efficient) to ship the coal to the plant than push the juice through hundreds of miles of wire.

    Build a plant there, add another in Nenana for the Fairbanks area, and one in the Copper Valley.

    As for the nukes? Way back in the ancient days of the early 90's Toshiba developed a portable low-yield nuclear power plant that fit inside a single shipping container. It cost half a million dollars and could power 1,500 homes for 25 years. Galena had applied for a waiver from the DoE/NRC to be a test community. Don't know whatever happened to that, but as a concept it could revolutionize energy availability for bush Alaska. (The material was non-weaponize-able)

    Gas would be great, awesome wonderful but as it stands it's not economically feasible to bring it to our local markets without exporting it. We need large, long term contracts to amortize the infrastructure needed to get it to our homes and businesses. A 60 billion dollar bill split 200,000 ways over 30 years is a debt we cannot afford. (if you ever had one of those "Canada my *****! It's Alaska's gas!" bumper stickers you might be an idiot)

    As for dams? Damming the Su or Talkeetna might make sense if there was a massive mineral deposit in need of electricity but that's not the case. In either case these dams would face about the same dilemma as the Healy coal plant, namely being too far from the primary consumers.

    So, anyway, Coal and ATCO nukes. YMMV
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

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    Member Roger45's Avatar
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    Government looks for cheap and easy solutions. To me, you never make government more efficient by making it more complicated. Everything in Alaska seems to revolve around the Slope and what happens on the Slope. We have a road there and a pipeline as well. Almost every building up there is on a pad and can be easily moved or dismantled. Why not install a power generation plant there, (fueled by natural gas or oil), run power lines down the pipeline road, and power the State? Seems to me this would be relatively simple solution, but then again I am not a scientist nor have any idea of the "unintended consequences", but it would be the least invasive way to cheaply power Alaska...
    "...and then Jack chopped down the beanstock, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and vandalism charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused just about anything if you're a hero, because no one asks the inconvenient questions." Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    In-ground coal gassification could solve a lot of our energy needs. CIRI was working on this in the late 2000s, but I'm not sure what came of it. I certainly hope that work is continuing, as it can be done economically on a small enough scale to work for Alaska and it wouldn't require digging up huge amounts of habitat like traditional coal mining often does.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger45 View Post
    Government looks for cheap and easy solutions. To me, you never make government more efficient by making it more complicated. Everything in Alaska seems to revolve around the Slope and what happens on the Slope. We have a road there and a pipeline as well. Almost every building up there is on a pad and can be easily moved or dismantled. Why not install a power generation plant there, (fueled by natural gas or oil), run power lines down the pipeline road, and power the State? Seems to me this would be relatively simple solution, but then again I am not a scientist nor have any idea of the "unintended consequences", but it would be the least invasive way to cheaply power Alaska...
    You loose too much power in the lines over that distance.
    I'm no expert but have read that your idea isn't feasible.
    Plus maintenance would be a nightmare.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdstrike View Post
    Another Dam! The Talkeetna This Time
    Dam them all! Mines need power!
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Dam them all! Mines need power!
    Instead lets close all the mines! Nobody needs anything that is mined anyway right?
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Instead lets close all the mines! Nobody needs anything that is mined anyway right?
    Au contraire! We need mines so we can make steel to reinforce concrete to build dams. And steel to build mining equipment. And copper and aluminum to make power lines to transmit electricity to mines so Canadian companies can mine gold to make jewelry for pudgy pink American consumers!
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Au contraire! We need mines so we can make steel to reinforce concrete to build dams. And steel to build mining equipment. And copper and aluminum to make power lines to transmit electricity to mines so Canadian companies can mine gold for jewelry!
    Says the guy using the computer to type his message.
    Oh wait there's no gold or copper in the computer your typing on correct?
    And your computer doesn't require electricity correct?
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Says the guy using the computer to type his message.
    Oh wait there's no gold or copper in the computer your typing on correct?
    And your computer doesn't require electricity correct?
    The amount of gold in my computer wouldn't buy you a cup of coffee at McDonalds. Less than about 10% of gold mined globally is used for industrial purposes. About 60% of gold mined globally is used for jewelry. The remainder is hoarded by people who assign completely arbitrary value to it and view it as an "investment". We've already mined more than enough gold to satisfy our industrial needs for as long as humans are likely to survive as a species (a length of time which we as a species are diligently working to diminish at an ever increasing rate).
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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  18. #18
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Less than about 10% of gold mined globally is used for industrial purposes. The amount of gold in my computer wouldn't buy you a cup of coffee at McDonalds. About 60% of gold mined globally is used for jewelry. We've already mined more than enough gold to satisfy our industrial needs for as long as humans are likely to survive as a species (a length of time which we as a species are diligently working to diminish at an ever increasing rate).
    Ok so you also do not use lead,zinc,steel,or any other minerals that are mined do you?
    I don't support all mining,but I am smart enough to realize the importance of mining in my daily life.
    How everything that can't be grown must be mined.
    But I'm sure you don't shoot lead bullets or use lead fishing sinkers.
    You don't drive a vehicle made of steel.
    You don't use products galvanized with zinc. Etc. Etc.
    Does your wife wear jewelry?
    I suppose not.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

  19. #19
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Ok so you also do not use lead,zinc,steel,or any other minerals that are mined do you?
    I don't support all mining,but I am smart enough to realize the importance of mining in my daily life.
    How everything that can't be grown must be mined.
    But I'm sure you don't shoot lead bullets or use lead fishing sinkers.
    You don't drive a vehicle made of steel.
    You don't use products galvanized with zinc. Etc. Etc.
    Does your wife wear jewelry?
    I suppose not.
    You're absolutely correct, and I am all for gross ignorant consumerism! Dam them all, and mine everything we can find! Short term jobs are the way to long term survival. The faster we dam it and mine it, the better off we'll all be!
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  20. #20
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    You're absolutely correct, and I am all for gross ignorant consumerism! Dam them all, and mine everything we can find! Short term jobs are the way to long term survival. The faster we dam it and mine it, the better off we'll be!
    That's not at all what I am saying.
    But I don't drive my truck around thinking how bad iron mines are or how bad oil companies are while I fill up my tank at the gas station.
    I don't live In a sod hut.
    My house is made of wood some logger cut. And milled into boards at a lumber mill.
    I've worked In Alaska's largest mines and in Alaska's largest oilfields and refineries.
    I know that responsible development can happen and it does so every day.
    I don't support all development.
    I'm not sure I support this dam project.
    But I do want more info before condemning them.
    The slope had a 20 year projected lifespan yet I just received another PFD yesterday and will see another oilfield paycheck deposited in Friday.
    Hmm short term is a relative thing I guess.

    Btw If big oil is so bad you can pm me your address so I can come collect your PFD check.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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