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Thread: Destroy the Moose Habitat......Destroys the moose population.

  1. #1

    Default Destroy the Moose Habitat......Destroys the moose population.

    The beaver dams are a critical part of moose habitat. Hell, beaver dams are a critical part of the habitat for hundreds of different Alaska animals.

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  2. #2
    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Being just a wee bit dramatic aren't we. If jumping a beaver dam wipes out habitat, all the areas would have long ago been destroyed. We know that are are sweet on the Beavers,, they will be fine. The snow hasn't even flew yet.
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  3. #3

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    It may even be illegal to damage a Beaver Dam. Anyway I just don't like this type of attitude towards Alaska's wilderness, it show a disrespect. I suspect this is why hunters blame game management decisions, but assume no responsibility for their own behavior. These machines, and this attitude are the current and future of the Alaskan wilderness experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    Being just a wee bit dramatic aren't we. If jumping a beaver dam wipes out habitat, all the areas would have long ago been destroyed. We know that are are sweet on the Beavers,, they will be fine. The snow hasn't even flew yet.

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    Member AK Wonderer's Avatar
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    I'm much more worried about the boat getting damaged than the beaver dam suffering. If the guy was out there with a chainsaw then I might worry.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    ...Anyway I just don't like this type of attitude towards Alaska's wilderness, it show a disrespect. I suspect this is why hunters blame game management decisions, but assume no responsibility for their own behavior. These machines, and this attitude are the current and future of the Alaskan wilderness experience.
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    Member Yukoner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    The beaver dams are a critical part of moose habitat. Hell, beaver dams are a critical part of the habitat for hundreds of different Alaska animals.
    Including Beavers...
    Out of curiosity, would it be acceptable to drag a canoe over a Beaver dam? Because if not, thats going to eliminate a lot of river trips.
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    I would be willing to bet that any damage caused by the boat going over the top, was repair on short order from the beavers.

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    Looks fun, wish my boat could do that. Even it did did damage anything on the beaver dam, they'll have it repaired in a day...they're persistent critters. Nothing to get worked up about here

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    There's this whole "leave no trace" ethic that kind of cuts against bulldozing over wildlife and wilderness.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    Being just a wee bit dramatic aren't we. If jumping a beaver dam wipes out habitat, all the areas would have long ago been destroyed. We know that are are sweet on the Beavers,, they will be fine. The snow hasn't even flew yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    It may even be illegal to damage a Beaver Dam. Anyway I just don't like this type of attitude towards Alaska's wilderness, it show a disrespect. I suspect this is why hunters blame game management decisions, but assume no responsibility for their own behavior. These machines, and this attitude are the current and future of the Alaskan wilderness experience.
    I think the point stid2677 was making is that that is an awful big jump to assume that jumping a beaver dam is causing a decline in the moose population. If you would have just said that you found it disrespectful in the first place that would be an acceptable complaint. It sounds like you are looking for excuses to justify your complaint. I agree that it might tear up the country and it might create an eyesore, but to say it is going to reduce the moose population is a little extreme.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Would love to hear a detailed explanation about what benefit a moose gets from a beaver dam. Since the state regularly removes the dam things because they have the capability of destroying salmon runs. In fact, they've been removing beaver dams (and trappers remove the beavers) for many decades. In addition, a boat going over the top of a pile of sticks does no damage. It's a pile of sticks; what exactly do you think a boat sliding over the top is going to do that thousands of tons of water pressure can't?

    If the guys in the boat were tossing out trash and beer cans, I'd be pissed. In your photographic evidence, there is no sign of dam damage visible. My guess is that no one could even tell the boat went there after the wake settles. In other words, "no trace". Nothing to see here... Moving along...
    Winter is Coming...

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  12. #12

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    It is just a clear example of the attitude of current Alaska hunters. Do I really.....REALLY give a CHIT.......No, I don't care, I am near 68 y/o and have no children. But I would think that some of you should care. In the end it is not about the damage, or about how quick the beavers can repair the damage.

    It is about an attitude of disrespecting GODS gift to Alaskans. Alaska will be destroyed, there is zero doubt about that happening. I have watched it for 45 years. It is about attitude, it is about reverence, it is about NOT appreciating what you have till it is destroyed.

    What I find most shocking is that so many of you just don't really grasp that you are a part of the perfection of the whole.

    The wilderness can change a man............
    There is a real transformation that can metamorphose within a man who is alone in the wilderness. He can exit the wilderness fragile, very fragile, he is no longer sure where that which is himself ends and that which is not himself starts.

    Everything is kind of fuzzy, and has a softness about it, all things appear slightly blurred to the eye, like after one has been crying, and it can be hard to distinguish where one object stops and another object starts.

    He feels weak and vulnerable, but centered. In fact he is stronger, but the feeling of weakness, and vulnerability comes from the loss of arrogance.

    There is a clarity about the perfection of everything. Sounds are crisper, colors are different, there are so many more (new) colors now.

    He feels as if he is looking through things and through people, this is a very uncomfortable experience, he tries to focus, but he just looks through everything.

    Part of him wants to go back to the way it was, before being alone in the wilderness. But he also enjoys the bliss of how it is now. He wants to weep for no reason, but for the perfection of everything.

    He has change, and can not change back to that which he was before, being alone in the wilderness.

    I know not of drugs, but being alone in the wilderness, for long periods will change your perception of the universe. The universe is the same, but you have shifted to a place where you can see, with new eyes, a new heart, and a new empathy for all life. You have been born a second time, and are a child of the wilderness.

    There was a time long ago, that a man was encouraged to go into the wilderness alone for a extended period, so that he might find wisdom about life. Sad it is discouraged today. Welcome home....welcome home. Home from the wilderness, for he free to return at any time to your true nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhack Jack View Post
    I think the point stid2677 was making is that that is an awful big jump to assume that jumping a beaver dam is causing a decline in the moose population. If you would have just said that you found it disrespectful in the first place that would be an acceptable complaint. It sounds like you are looking for excuses to justify your complaint. I agree that it might tear up the country and it might create an eyesore, but to say it is going to reduce the moose population is a little extreme.

  13. #13
    Member Frostbitten's Avatar
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    Running a jet boat up a slough is no more disrespectful than burying or stashing caches of equipment and supplies around Gods country.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    See a lot of stuff about how destructive beavers are, but not much about how good they are for moose...

    Ecologists call beaver "ecosystem engineers" because these animals physically alter habitats by cutting down trees, building dams, digging canals and building lodges. In doing so, beaver change the distribution and abundance of many other animals and plants, mostly by indirect interactions. In this series of reports, we review the ecology of beaver and the many diverse effects that beaver engineering has on other organisms.
    When beavers dam a stream they slow the movement of water. Behind the beaver dam, a pond of still water is formed. This pond (impoundment) is then colonized by animals and plants that typically live in lakes rather than streams. Organisms dependent on fast moving water die out in the beaver pond, or move to parts of the stream where the flow of water has not been slowed by the beaver dam. After a beaver dam has existed for ten years or more, the pond it created usually has an abundance of submersed and emergent vegetation, along with the many animals that live in such vegetation.
    The forest beside the stream also changes after beaver occupation. When beavers cut down trees for food and for building their dams and lodges, they select the species of trees that they prefer, and leave other tree species standing. Consequently, after many years, the forest beside a beaver pond is usually dominated by different tree species than it was before beaver occupation, and in the gaps where the beavers removed trees, bushes and saplings now grow and with them the animal species that live in the early stages of forest regeneration (Barnes and Dibble 1986; Johnston and Naiman 1990; Pastor and Naiman 1992; Donkor et al. 2000). In addition, when the beaver pond is formed by the dam, water floods and covers the roots of trees that formerly stood along the stream bank. These flooded trees die because the standing water prevents their roots from getting air.
    When the flow of water in a stream is slowed by the beaver dam, soil and organic sediment carried in the water usually settle to the bottom of the beaver pond. When beaver subsequently abandon a locality, their dam eventually breaks and the pond drains leaving a large open space. A meadow usually grows on the nutrient-rich soils that once formed the bottom of the pond. These "beaver meadows" usually have more light penetration, higher soil moisture, more nitrogen and a different vegetation than the adjacent riparian forest (Johnston et al. 1995; Wright et al. 2002).
    Beaver engineering also includes two other activities: lodge making and canal digging. The construction of lodges by beaver adds coarse woody debris to the beaver pond which some fish species use for cover (France 1997; Collen and Gibson 2001). Canals are usually about "30 to 60 cm wide and 20 to 35 cm deep, and can extend hundreds of yards into the forest (Stocker 1985; Collen and Gibson 2001). After a beaver has dug a canal, it can float branches from trees it has cut and move them to safer feeding locations.
    Effects of beaver engineering on wildlife
    Beaver engineering alters the distribution and abundance of so many organisms, that we cannot mention them all on this page. Therefore, we have produced separate reviews for different groups of animals and plants affected by beaver engineering. Click the following links to learn more about the effects of beaver engineering on specific species of plants and animals:
    For effects of beaver engineering on fishes, see Collen and Gibson (2001). Salmon stop using certain rivers whose streams are dammed by beaver because the dams block salmon movements upstream. In the arctic, Beluga Whales (Delphinapterus leucas) which feed on salmon, also stop entering the same dammed rivers (Huntington and Myrmin 1996; Pierotti and Wildcat 2000).
    Effects of beaver engineering on humans
    In Wyoming, a survey showed that owners of private lands believed that they benefited from beaver engineering because it elevated water tables, increased the area of riparian vegetation on their lands, and also increased livestock watering opportunities (McKinstry and Anderson 1999). However, these same landowners regarded beaver as pests when these rodents girdled timber, blocked irrigation ditches and culverts with wood, and flooded roads, railroads, crops and timber (McKinstry and Anderson 1999).
    In New York state, beaver plug highway culverts with wood, creating "roadside impoundments that damage and sometimes flood the roadbed" (Jensen et al. 2001). However, oversized culverts were less likely to be plugged by beaver, so it was recommended that oversized culverts be installed (Jensen et al. 2001). Although such oversized culverts are more expensive, over the long run they are regarded as more cost-effective than trapping or debris removal.
    In some places, such as the southeastern United States, beaver cause extensive damage to valuable timberland by flooding bottomland forests and eating tree seedlings (Bhat et al. 1993; Conner at al. 2000). Although trapping can control beaver populations, low pelt prices often fail to provide a stimulus to professional trappers, and the landowner is often left with the cost of removing the nuisance beavers.
    Unfortunately, after one landowner traps beaver on his property, surplus beaver from neighboring properties often invade the now vacant habitat and the landowner is right back where he or she started. Bhat et al. (1993) argue that all landowners in an area must therefore cooperate together to manage beaver. They propose a long-term trapping program with increased trapping in the initial years. This results in fewer beavers in the total area, less trapping required in subsequent years, and a smaller number of beaver being killed over the long-term. A weakness of this proposal is that it requires all landowners in an area to cooperate. Landowners whose own economic or recreational interests are benefited by beaver and beaver engineering may be reluctant to cooperate.
    Relationships with Predators
    Many large predators occasionally prey on beaver, however only the wolf (Canis lupus) does so regularly and to the extent that it can significantly reduce numbers of beaver (Shelton and Peterson 1983). For example, in southeastern Alaska, 31% of wolf feces contained the remains of beaver (Kohira and Rexstad (1997). In Belarus, the frequency of beaver remains in wolf feces ranged from 6% to 22% over a ten-year period (Sidorovich et al. 2003). Frequent wolf predation on beaver has also been documented in Latvia, Ontario, Minnesota and Alaska (Voigt et al. 1976; Fuller 1989; Thurber and Peterson 1993; Andersone and Ozolins 2004).
    On the other hand, wolves benefit beaver indirectly by killing and scaring away potential competitors of beaver. For example, fear of reintroduced wolves caused wapiti (Cervus elaphus) in Yellowstone National Park, to avoided some riparian zones where they had previously over-browsed and eliminated young willow and cottonwood trees. The resulting relief from wapiti over-browsing allowed tree populations in these areas to recover, providing food for beaver which promptly colonized the area (Ripple and Beschta 2004).
    Effects of beaver engineering on biodiversity
    In the Appalachian Plateau region of New York, active beaver impoundments contained "significantly more bird species and a greater average number of bird species than abandoned beaver ponds and control sites with no record of beaver occupation (Grover and Baldassarre 1995)."
    In the Upper Piedmont of South Carolina, the abundance, richness and diversity of reptiles were significantly higher at beaver impoundments than at unimpounded streams, however the "richness, diversity and evenness of amphibians was significantly higher at unimpounded streams than at beaver ponds (Metts et al. 2001).
    In the Adirondack region of New York, Wright et al. (2002) found that beaver engineering increased species richness of plants at the landscape scale, because beaver created patches of habitat (beaver ponds and meadows) had a combination of conditions that were not present elsewhere in the landscape, and some plant species that lived in these beaver-modified habitats were not present in habitats unmodified by beaver.


    Winter is Coming...

    Go GeocacheAlaska!

  15. #15

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    I would agree with this. However you have clearly taken the fantasy and basic foundation for a novel and magnified it into reality. There are NO caches that I have established beyond those on my property. However this clearly shows that people believe what ever they choose, with zero evidence to support their belief. I would suggest you NOT believe everything you read on the internet. That said, the photos may have been fabricated..........but I suspect NOT.



    Quote Originally Posted by Frostbitten View Post
    Running a jet boat up a slough is no more disrespectful than burying or stashing caches of equipment and supplies around Gods country.

  16. #16

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    Maybe you need to spend time alone in the wilderness. You will understand (With enough time) how it is all woven together. And you are a part of the together. You are a part of the whole, you are a part of Alaska. You get to choose what part (destructive or reverent).

    [QUOTE=JOAT;1426007]See a lot of stuff about how destructive beavers are, but not much about how good they are for moose...

  17. #17
    Member AK Ray's Avatar
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    Default Destroy the Moose Habitat......Destroys the moose population.

    As a frequent user of the lands adjacent to the Denali highway I can understand AG4now's point, because Alaskans are literally crapping all over it. Am I actually the only Alaskan that owns a shovel and knows how to chit in the woods? Based on what is displayed at every wide spot on that road, yes I am. The rest of you are f-ing gross, dude.

    And yes beaver ****s over the long term create a mature environment for water plants which moose feed on in the summer more than many other plants.

  18. #18
    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    The wilderness can change a man............
    There is a real transformation that can metamorphose within a man who is alone in the wilderness. He can exit the wilderness fragile, very fragile, he is no longer sure where that which is himself ends and that which is not himself starts.

    Everything is kind of fuzzy, and has a softness about it, all things appear slightly blurred to the eye, like after one has been crying, and it can be hard to distinguish where one object stops and another object starts.

    He feels weak and vulnerable, but centered. In fact he is stronger, but the feeling of weakness, and vulnerability comes from the loss of arrogance.

    There is a clarity about the perfection of everything. Sounds are crisper, colors are different, there are so many more (new) colors now.

    He feels as if he is looking through things and through people, this is a very uncomfortable experience, he tries to focus, but he just looks through everything.

    Part of him wants to go back to the way it was, before being alone in the wilderness. But he also enjoys the bliss of how it is now. He wants to weep for no reason, but for the perfection of everything.

    He has change, and can not change back to that which he was before, being alone in the wilderness.

    I know not of drugs, but being alone in the wilderness, for long periods will change your perception of the universe. The universe is the same, but you have shifted to a place where you can see, with new eyes, a new heart, and a new empathy for all life. You have been born a second time, and are a child of the wilderness.

    There was a time long ago, that a man was encouraged to go into the wilderness alone for a extended period, so that he might find wisdom about life. Sad it is discouraged today. Welcome home....welcome home. Home from the wilderness, for he free to return at any time to your true nature.
    If these are your words, you Sir, are a poet. Truly.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

  19. #19

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    No.......not a poet. They are my words, and they are the result of an experience of six months with no human contact while homesteading in the Clearwater Country, in the early 70's. (Above the Denali Haul Road, Now called the Denali Hwy.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik in AK View Post
    If these are your words, you Sir, are a poet. Truly.

  20. #20
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    I see the market of selling over priced guns has tanked...

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