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Thread: I think it is BS.....

  1. #1

    Default I think it is BS.....

    That the army plays war games in the Delta area during September 1-15. I have no dog in this fight as I will never hunt that area, but there are tags that are issued in those areas and being that harvesting game is an important part of most Alaskan's life, I just don't see why they can't wait until after the 15th to do so. I have all the respect in the world for our military, but I do think it is ridiculous that these areas are totally shut off from hunting for a 15 day period. I'm thinking that this is half done on purpose or there are people that are anti hunters involved, or they simply don't care about the Alaskan way of life. Just a rant. People draw these tags, make preparations, and then find out 90% of the area is off limits.

  2. #2

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    Well lets see, last year they started a fire in July so what would you rather have? I heard the smoke was horrible for some hunters. With the amount of land tied up in Military, national parks etc one should just feel lucky enough to be able to hunt it at all. That's just the way it is. There is the risk of access if you put in or plan to hunt these areas, if you fail to plan around this, well boo hoo for you....

  3. #3
    Member OKElkHunter's Avatar
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    I am retired military and have hunted numerous military lands. I understand your frustration, because I have personal experience with anti-hunting types that are in the military. While stationed in another state, I won't say which, that had one of the best deer management programs in the nation, which regularly produced BC and PY class bucks; there was once a anti-hunter senior commander that would purposfully schedule training and try to lock out all the major training areas during deer and elk season. He was successful the first season that he did this, but when his unit did not use the areas that he had locked out for training, we, the hunters and active members of the post Fish and Game Board, proposed rule changes to the recreational land use policy to the post commander and he approved them. Unfortunately, each commander is different when it comes to how they implement policies and each installation is different on who and how it manages recreational land use.

    I'm not trying to imply that the training that is currently scheduled is purposfully done to prevent hunting, in this case, but I have seen it happen in other places. If you aren't military or affilliated with the military here in AK, you don't have the insight on what the units here in AK are preparing for. The current international situation dictates how and when our military train, and it could be that the training being done cannot wait until after the 15th of September. Be glad that we still have the freedom to hunt and that those military personnel that are out there preventing hunting on a very small piece of AK are the very reason we still have the few freedoms that exist in this country.

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    Colorado!!!!!!

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    Member OKElkHunter's Avatar
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    Nope, a little farther south
    “Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong." ~Calvin Coolidge~

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    Member Frostbitten's Avatar
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    War games involve way more than just Alaska military units. I know for a fact how difficult it is to coordinate the schedules of different units from around the world, including units from forign military services. If it all comes together between 1-15 Sep, then that's when it happens. In the big scheme of things, the state of readiness for our fighting men and women who are preparing to go into harms way is more important than the ability for a few folks to go hunting in a particular area for a few days. The needs of the many far outweigh the needs of the few.

    They don't schedule war games to intentionally mess up folks' hunting plans. If they wanted to mess with hunters plans, they would just close the area for "range maintenance".

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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    During my 8 years at Elmo I lost scheduled hunting opportunities (spring and fall combined) a total of 7 times due to readiness exercises or deployments or HQ inspections. It is what it is.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

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    Member OKElkHunter's Avatar
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    You are correct when it comes to major training activities, but local commanders do have some schedule flexability in conducting local individual unit training, which was the case in my earlier post. In the case of the DTA, it is likely a major training event in preparation for something bigger, and the time of the training just happens to conflict with hunting season, unfortunately. You can probably count on this though, if it were up to the soldiers, they would rather be hunting than doing field training during this time of year. I can't recall how many hunting seasons that I sacrificed due to training and deployments. I'd have much rather been hunting, but thats just one of many sacrifices that our military have to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostbitten View Post
    War games involve way more than just Alaska military units. I know for a fact how difficult it is to coordinate the schedules of different units from around the world, including units from forign military services. If it all comes together between 1-15 Sep, then that's when it happens. In the big scheme of things, the state of readiness for our fighting men and women who are preparing to go into harms way is more important than the ability for a few folks to go hunting in a particular area for a few days. The needs of the many far outweigh the needs of the few.

    They don't schedule war games to intentionally mess up folks' hunting plans. If they wanted to mess with hunters plans, they would just close the area for "range maintenance".
    “Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong." ~Calvin Coolidge~

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    Member Gr is for Greg's Avatar
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    I had one of the Ft. Richardson (er I guess JBER) muzzle loader tags last year. My hunt area was completely on base, and the stipulation was given very clearly that there would be closures during the season. I completely understand this and don't have any criticism except for this: the earliest possible time to find out if it was closed or not was at 6:00 am the day you wanted to hunt. It made it very difficult to plan for hunting. I'd try to schedule meetings and other work commitments around days I wanted to hunt only to find out that morning, when I had everything loaded in the vehicle and ready to go, that the base was closed. It just seemed silly - perfect word for it, silly - that they could not give some sort of training schedule that went out even just a day or two. I can't imagine the decision to hold training in those areas was made at 6:00 am each day, and I just haven't guessed at the reasoning behind withholding that information until the very morning, with hunters trying to plan their hunts.

    As with the OP, I don't think the criticism is in the fact that hunting on military training grounds is going to lead to conflicts that will always result in the hunter sitting it out. We all understand that when we sign up for a military land hunt. The primary purpose of the land is training, and hunting is secondary, period. I just think some simple improvements would go a long way, like trying to keep training in the Delta area at a minimum for two weeks of the year, or letting JBER hunters know a couple days in advance which days they can plan to hunt. Even an estimated forecast, e.g. "The area will probably be closed to hunting Tuesday through Thursday of this week," would be better than simply playing hunting roulette at 6:00 am for four days in a row, wasting an hour or two each early morning for a hunt that somebody knew wasn't going to happen that day. -Gr
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr is for Greg View Post
    I had one of the Ft. Richardson (er I guess JBER) muzzle loader tags last year. My hunt area was completely on base, and the stipulation was given very clearly that there would be closures during the season. I completely understand this and don't have any criticism except for this: the earliest possible time to find out if it was closed or not was at 6:00 am the day you wanted to hunt. It made it very difficult to plan for hunting. I'd try to schedule meetings and other work commitments around days I wanted to hunt only to find out that morning, when I had everything loaded in the vehicle and ready to go, that the base was closed. It just seemed silly - perfect word for it, silly - that they could not give some sort of training schedule that went out even just a day or two. I can't imagine the decision to hold training in those areas was made at 6:00 am each day, and I just haven't guessed at the reasoning behind withholding that information until the very morning, with hunters trying to plan their hunts.

    As with the OP, I don't think the criticism is in the fact that hunting on military training grounds is going to lead to conflicts that will always result in the hunter sitting it out. We all understand that when we sign up for a military land hunt. The primary purpose of the land is training, and hunting is secondary, period. I just think some simple improvements would go a long way, like trying to keep training in the Delta area at a minimum for two weeks of the year, or letting JBER hunters know a couple days in advance which days they can plan to hunt. Even an estimated forecast, e.g. "The area will probably be closed to hunting Tuesday through Thursday of this week," would be better than simply playing hunting roulette at 6:00 am for four days in a row, wasting an hour or two each early morning for a hunt that somebody knew wasn't going to happen that day. -Gr
    With JBER, there are a lot of different areas to hunt. It would only be a rare occasion that all of the hunting areas would be closed at the same time. In most cases, just because the spot you intended to hunt is not open doesn't mean you couldn't have gone to a different area that was still open. Whenever you are trying to recreate on a military base, is just makes sense to have a backup plan for a different area in case one or more other areas may be closed that day.

    While I agree they probably know with relative certainty what units they will be using for training a day or so in advance, advertising whether an area will be open or closed ahead of time opens up new issues if/when those plans change. As soon as you start putting out the notice a day or two ahead of time that a particular area will be open, then end up closing it that day for an unexpected exercise, you will increase the chances that people did not call back and just assumed it was still open or those people who made plans based on the advance notice that it would be open getting mad because it ended up closed when they got there. There really is no way to make everyone happy. We all know when we put in for and win permits for military land that we are the low man on the totem pole. For them, hunting is not the first priority, and probably not even on the list of the top 10 priorities. It's a risk we assume when we apply.

  11. #11
    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northway View Post
    That the army plays war games in the Delta area during September 1-15. I have no dog in this fight as I will never hunt that area, but there are tags that are issued in those areas and being that harvesting game is an important part of most Alaskan's life, I just don't see why they can't wait until after the 15th to do so. I have all the respect in the world for our military, but I do think it is ridiculous that these areas are totally shut off from hunting for a 15 day period. I'm thinking that this is half done on purpose or there are people that are anti hunters involved, or they simply don't care about the Alaskan way of life. Just a rant. People draw these tags, make preparations, and then find out 90% of the area is off limits.
    for years, field training exercises have been conducted in the fall, within that region. what really sucks, is being one of those guys, always missing almost the entire moose hunting season, for that mandatory training. It's not just the locals trying to fill tags on military lands. Gobs of time those soldiers have to spend at the motor pool, getting vehicles ready through some ridiculous bureaucratic bll sht. for weeks, laying out equipment for inspection, and inspections of personal equipment. then........convoy back, and lay everything out for cleaning, and further inspections, not to mention, weapons cleanings that consume even more time.

    by the time these poor guys are done with the entirety of the field traning excercise, they are lucky enough to get a beer with friends, or quality time spent with their family......then it's off to some foreign land.

    I completely agree, it is BS, but it's the name of the game.

    I remember one year, it was construction projects all through june, july was a sapper competition, august-september was field traning, october was continuation of construction projects, november was lay-outs of equipment for a new company commander, late november was another local field traning excercise to please the new company commander of our proficiency, and finally, December was off to Iraq.

    hunting was never a priority for anyone, total bummer what these guys sacrifice.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    Well lets see, last year they started a fire in July so what would you rather have? I heard the smoke was horrible for some hunters. With the amount of land tied up in Military, national parks etc one should just feel lucky enough to be able to hunt it at all. That's just the way it is. There is the risk of access if you put in or plan to hunt these areas, if you fail to plan around this, well boo hoo for you....
    Might want to re-read my post. I don't hunt there and never will. It is just a fact that moose season just happens to be Sept. 1-15 EVERY year. You would think they could at least work around those dates. And I have the utmost respect for the military, so lets not even go there.

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    Member AK Ray's Avatar
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    How about when you are on the Denali Highway near the west fork of the Mcclaren river and F16's are overhead at 500 to 2500 feet. I am sure the guys that lined their boats up the main Mcclaren enjoyed the C130 at 2500 feet. At least it was just an hour of the day and not all day. I had thought there was a minimum ceiling for these things but I guess not.

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    I think the military have bigger fish to fry than worrying if its hunting season or not and i'm grateful for that.

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    Member OKElkHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr is for Greg View Post
    It just seemed silly - perfect word for it, silly - that they could not give some sort of training schedule that went out even just a day or two. I can't imagine the decision to hold training in those areas was made at 6:00 am each day, and I just haven't guessed at the reasoning behind withholding that information until the very morning, with hunters trying to plan their hunts.
    Yes that is silly. referring back to my first post on this subject, each military intallation public/recreational use management is different. The other installations that I've hunted on always had closure schedules available at least a week out and in many instances the schedules covered the entire season. All training events are planned at least 6 weeks out and the lack of a closure schedule is due to the lack of communication between the plans and training section at the Army side and the police/fish and wildlife sections on the Air force side. There was a disconnect before they combined to a Joint Base, but the disconnect is worse now that both installations are combined under one installation command for management. DTA and FWA don't have the issue and publish closures several weeks in advance.
    “Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong." ~Calvin Coolidge~

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    Member AKmyles's Avatar
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    I think kodiak kid nailed that one on the head, I gotta agree with him

  17. #17

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    I'm not familiar with the specifics of the Delta area hunt mentioned by the OP. Do those military operations close the entire available hunt area or just a portion of the hunt area?

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    Member Frostbitten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiak kid View Post
    i think the military have bigger fish to fry than worrying if its hunting season or not and i'm grateful for that.
    salute!!!!

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    Member Frostbitten's Avatar
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    Keep in mind, that a part of most war games is testing/exercising the ability for our warfighters to deploy on short/no notice. If a training area is advertised to be closed weeks or even days in advance, the ability to evaluate the short/no notice deployment capabilities is nullified. Our soldiers aren't stupid...if they see that a training area is closed to the public, that's a tell tale sign that something is happening.

    Folks can fuss all they want about "their hunting area" being closed for a few days...our soldiers are training and fighting so these folks have the freedom to keep fussing..

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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK Ray View Post
    How about when you are on the Denali Highway near the west fork of the Mcclaren river and F16's are overhead at 500 to 2500 feet. I am sure the guys that lined their boats up the main Mcclaren enjoyed the C130 at 2500 feet. At least it was just an hour of the day and not all day. I had thought there was a minimum ceiling for these things but I guess not.
    Most of the country south of the Denali is in (or under) a military training airspace called the Fox II MOA (Military Operating Area). It is unrestricted airspace which means you will hear sonic booms fairly regularly and IIRC the "floor" in such training areas is 500 ft AGL (Above Ground Level). Anyone out there recreating may get treated to an impromptu airshow as our fighters practice dogfighting.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

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