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Thread: What do you Alaskan hunters think about this?

  1. #1
    Member Yukoner's Avatar
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    Default What do you Alaskan hunters think about this?

    OK, this is a situation here in the Yukon, and perhaps not the most appropriate section on the forum, but I need some non-biased input.
    North of Whitehorse are two small communities, Faro and Mayo. There are 3 Federally licensed air carriers that have apparently signed "contracts" with all the big game outfitters who base out of these communities, and part of these contracts are that the carriers can not fly for anyone else while on contract, which means no residents flying into "their" areas. The outfitters have essentially formed a cartel, and have pretty much now eliminated residents. The carriers would love to fly residents, but the Yukon is small in population, and outfitters bring a lot of business. The outfitters have stated to them in clear terms that if they fly residents into any of "their" lakes (that is any lakes in their concessions) they will not get any business from any of them.
    What would you guys do? Would Alaskans be ok with this situation.
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Who would the guides use if the three pilots said no? Would a pilot lose money if he just flew unguided folks?
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    This already exists in Alaska, perhaps not as organized but close to it.

    I believe the outfitters guaranteed business keeps the pilots on board. Very sad indeed.


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    It's time to get into a flying service dedicated to unguided and non-outfitted Alaskan residents......

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwoods View Post
    It's time to get into a flying service dedicated to unguided and non-outfitted Alaskan residents......
    Absolutely. Sheep hunters in particular (which I am not). I wonder how many Alaskans realize that this "exclusive area" agreement even exists between many of the flying services and guides here.


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    You're talking about a flight operation being sure of making "X" dollars from a contracted guide versus the "possibility" of making "Y" dollars from DIY'ers. If you're running a business, its a no brainer. Either way, its hard to blame either party (pilots or guides) for wanting the best possible deal for themselves.

    I've no idea of what the regs are in the Yukon - get a friend or aquantance who has a plane (private) to fly you; pitch the idea to someone who has/can get the proper licenses to fly you (and others) thus starting a fourth flying business(?).

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    Member emartens123's Avatar
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    We got the same BS here in British Columbia.
    We also have the Natives blockading the highways trying to keep us resident hunters out...***,and the Government sitting on their hands letting it go on....
    Hey Yukoner I read in your local paper that the Natives from Ross river were going to try and keep out resident hunters in their territory,whats the word on that situation.

    Happy hunting folks were ever your from..

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    Supporting Member Hoyt-Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Either way, its hard to blame either party (pilots or guides) for wanting the best possible deal for themselves.
    .
    How is it hard to blame either party for manipulation and greed, unless you value those characteristics in a person?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukoner View Post
    OK, this is a situation here in the Yukon, and perhaps not the most appropriate section on the forum, but I need some non-biased input.
    North of Whitehorse are two small communities, Faro and Mayo. There are 3 Federally licensed air carriers that have apparently signed "contracts" with all the big game outfitters who base out of these communities, and part of these contracts are that the carriers can not fly for anyone else while on contract, which means no residents flying into "their" areas. The outfitters have essentially formed a cartel, and have pretty much now eliminated residents. The carriers would love to fly residents, but the Yukon is small in population, and outfitters bring a lot of business. The outfitters have stated to them in clear terms that if they fly residents into any of "their" lakes (that is any lakes in their concessions) they will not get any business from any of them.
    What would you guys do? Would Alaskans be ok with this situation.
    As much as I don't agree with it, it is business.

    Im assuming the the three carriers are private companies? As are the outfitters? If so the only thing that can happen is for the residents to boycott all year. Have someone arrange for another carrier.

    As as far as "their" lakes...are they private lands? Or native lands?


    we deal with this stuff down here as well. Era/ravn has had a monopoly on flights. Finally got a little competition but nothing is consistent. However rural politics keep people from coming out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoyt-Hunter View Post
    How is it hard to blame either party for manipulation and greed, unless you value those characteristics in a person?


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    If you see "greed and manipulation" in someone wanting the best experience possible for their clients (the guide) or someone garunteeing an income for himself and his family (the air taxi operator), I suggest that you NEVER enter the customer service sector or become a small business owner.

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    Seems to me the best way to make it fair, which seems to be the goal of modern government, is for the Feds to charter each hunter who wants a flight!


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    Supporting Member Hoyt-Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    If you see "greed and manipulation" in someone wanting the best experience possible for their clients (the guide) or someone garunteeing an income for himself and his family (the air taxi operator), I suggest that you NEVER enter the customer service sector or become a small business owner.
    Oh!! It's about pleasing your customer. Well, I guess it's OK then.


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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukoner View Post
    There are 3 Federally licensed air carriers that have apparently signed "contracts" with all the big game outfitters who base out of these communities, and part of these contracts are that the carriers can not fly for anyone else while on contract, which means no residents flying into "their" areas. The carriers would love to fly residents....
    If the carriers "would love to fly residents", why did they sign contracts preventing them from doing so?
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    Collusion

    is an agreement between two or more parties, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair market advantage. It is an agreement among firms or individuals to divide a market, set prices, limit production or limit opportunities.[1] It can involve "wage fixing, kickbacks, or misrepresenting the independence of the relationship between the colluding parties".[2] In legal terms, all acts effected by collusion are considered void.


    This happens a lot more than folks think and it's not always out in the open as this situation is..

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    How many potential customers does this leave out? Sounds like an opportunity for an enterprising person.
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    Premium Member bmunsell's Avatar
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    I don't think there is an air only accessible area in the state that doesn't have this issue to one degree or another. Just live and hunt here in the state for a few years and you will hear all kinds of wild stories about guides and the way they do business. And it's not just the way they would contract with air carriers, it also the claims they make to sections of country.

    I had a friend who had flown his own supercub into a little strip sheep hunting who said that he actually had the wings knocked off of his plane by the guide who claimed the strip as his own. I know, its sounds impossible, but he said the guide flew over and hit the top of the cub sitting on the ground with the tires on his cub hard enough to tear the wings off. Supposedly the guide actually admitted to the incident and his insurance paid to helicopter the wreck out and have it repaired. I actually saw the wrecked plane for what that's worth and know it was rebuilt.

    The story was that the guide said he was so upset because he had spent years whacking out the little strip, including have to land way off at a distance in the beginning and hiking in to do the preliminary work and now some freeloader was taking advantage. Supposedly my friend had even been warned not to go in there but had done it anyway. Got a nice sheep if I remember right.

    And it's not even just the professional guides. I've read accounts on this forum of guys trying to go into new areas and being told that they can't because that valley or that mountain is someones reserved area because they have been hunting there for ..... decades. Oh yes, and then there are our alaskan native brothers who can actually claim to have hunted in particular areas for ..... centuries.

    And then there are the areas of the state where you can hunt but, without a special permit of some kind, have to cut the horns off of a bull to destroy the trophy value. Those areas are specifically designed to discourage the typical urban resident hunter from making the effort to go to a remote area thereby leaving more of the game for the local meat hunters.

    Anyway, just pointing out that like a lot of things in this state, the issue of air carriers and contracts is complicated by many factors.

    To limon32, man I sure hope you are joking, if the feds had any say in the matter I don't think any of us would get to hunt at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmunsell View Post

    To limon32, man I sure hope you are joking, if the feds had any say in the matter I don't think any of us would get to hunt at all.
    Ha ha ha! Yes sarcasm, I just figured in the era of Obama phones (in the spirit of fairness) we might get them to fly us all out to our detonation of choice too!



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    Supporting Member Hoyt-Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limon32 View Post
    Ha ha ha! Yes sarcasm, I just figured in the era of Obama phones (in the spirit of fairness) we might get them to fly us all out to our detonation of choice too!



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    Obama- detonation of choice.

    Freudian slip.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoyt-Hunter View Post
    Obama- detonation of choice.

    Freudian slip.


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    Ha ha ha! Good catch!



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    Lots of good reading, thanks for all your thoughts.
    Never wrestle with a pig.
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    the Pig likes it.

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