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Thread: Furious. Worst day at the range EVER.

  1. #1
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    Default Furious. Worst day at the range EVER.

    What a wasted day. Just back from the range with those two new lever guns I got over the summer. Couldn't get either one of them to hit point of aim, no matter what. Not even close. Was going to take one of them hunting next week. Finally, after 3 hours and 50 rounds, I said "stuff it, I'm taking my 243." Guess I'll have to stick to head shots. I'm so far past angry it isn't even funny.

    Gun 1: a pre 64 late 1940's WInchester 94 in 30-30. Got this gun back from Andy right before he left state. He replaced some rear sight parts and tapped it in to center. Gun shoots awesome, nice, tight groups...4-5 shots almost touching in a vertical string. Gun shoots exactly under the bullseye and is perfectly centered left to right. Gun shoots FIVE inches low. Five. That's at 50 yards with the elevation maxed out. No more adjustment left.

    Gu 2: a 1970 Winchester 94 in 44 Magnum. NIB and never fired until today. (Got it from my uncle.) Gun shoots 2-3" groups just slightly right of center. (No big deal there, can easily be tapped in to center.) Gun shoots NINE inches high. Nine. Also at 50 yards with the elevation depressed all the way to the end. No more adjustment left.

    Push it out to 75 yards and fire 5-6 shots each and I still have those targets, completely untouched and still useable.

    I was (I am) leaving Saturday, som at this point, all I have left that I can depend on is my 243 match rifle. 3-9 scope I can set it on 3 and just aim for the ears. (It's that accurate.) But that leaves me with only bear spray in camp and on the trail. (Bear spray and a 32 Colt revolver.) Either that or carry TWO rifles and use the 44 for in camp and only on something under 25 yards.

    Needless to say, I'm pretty unhappy.

    PS: I have this exact same problem on my 357 lever gun as well.

    PPS: If rbuck351 sees this, those handloads you advised me on for the 44 are killer. The rifle report is a very distinct and high pitched crack. Easy to pick it out from all the other guns on the range today. Shoulder hurts. LOL.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Even though I wouldn't want either of those guns for hunting with, DLP shots are going to be in the range of 10 yards or less. Hence you're only going to be off an inch or two from POA vs. the 50 yd groups. I know I'd probably be able to place my shots better with the 44 mag rifle than a 44 handgun that shot POA at 50 yds.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

    If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

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    Check the front sights. see if one taller/shorter than the other. Maybe they can be swapped. If not, you can file down the one that is shooting low until it prints where you like. Or if you like you can use my 454Carbine or for that matter anything else I have on the shelf. Also have a 41mag and a 44mag handguns with bear loads if you want. Your sight problem is an easy fix but there probably isn't time before your hunt, the exception being the one shooting low could be fixed in a few minutes at the range with a file.

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    So, the 30-30 requires a shorter front sight. If my math is right, about .047 shorter to zero the rifle, but you would probably want to add .015 to that measurement so you can lower the rear as well. Sight radius x error divided by distance to the target, all dimensions in inches. So 17" sight radius x 5" error divided by 1800" distance to the target is .047". You can do the same for the 44, no big deal. If you are shooting HEAVY bullets in the 44, it can make a significant difference in point of impact as opposed to the run of the mill 240 gr that was available in 1970.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    With the 30-30 you can try a different bullet weight. I have an older Marlin that shoots 170s way low...to low to adjust to POI with the current front sight... but 150s shoot to POA.

    Worth a shot as it's easy to arrange before the season... replacing a front sight might be more problematic in the time frame.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Remember when adjusting iron sights.

    May the FORS,(force), be with you.

    Front Opposite Rear Same.

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    What the fiddlesticks all that crap you talk you dont even own a pre64 model 70 wow.... I would let you use one of my junk ass new haven model 70's but im in the Army you hate us and by your own admission only rifle to have is a pre64. Anyhow probably late in the game to add a peep sight to it either one?

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    First off, I got the two guns backwards. (Probbly unwise to be working two guns at the same time anyway.) The 44 is shooting low. (I had to go and look at the gun to be sure: the sight is run all the way up which means I'm trying to raise POI. So take my original post, and revere guns 1 and 2. Ooops.

    The 44 is shooting low with 312 grain bullets. The 30-30 is shooting high with 170 grn bullets, and the sight pushed all the way down. I didn't factor in bullet weight earlier. My grandfater hunted witha 30-30 for sixty years, fed my dad and his sibligs thrugh the depression with it. He was famous (in his township) for never missing a shot. But he had a Williams or a Lyman peep sight on it. (I've seen it. My uncle has it and still hunts with it.) I get it now that those factory sighs just don't allow for a wide range of adjustment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 323 View Post
    What the fiddlesticks all that crap you talk you dont even own a pre64 model 70 wow.... I would let you use one of my junk ass new haven model 70's but im in the Army you hate us and by your own admission only rifle to have is a pre64. Anyhow probably late in the game to add a peep sight to it either one?
    This I have to respond to directly lol. The 30-30 is a pre-64 gun. The 44 is not.

    That other stuff, I don't hate service members as individuals or as people (having been one myself), I hate militarism, and violence. Those are two very different and distinguishable entities. But, please, let us not go there today. (You can PM me on that if you want. If you're really bored sometime)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Check the front sights. see if one taller/shorter than the other. Maybe they can be swapped. If not, you can file down the one that is shooting low until it prints where you like. Or if you like you can use my 454Carbine or for that matter anything else I have on the shelf. Also have a 41mag and a 44mag handguns with bear loads if you want. Your sight problem is an easy fix but there probably isn't time before your hunt, the exception being the one shooting low could be fixed in a few minutes at the range with a file.
    Well, what do you think, rbuck? are you available the next couple days? I can bring everything up and we can go out to Birchwood. I'll send you a PM.

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL2AK-Old Town View Post
    The 44 is shooting low with 312 grain bullets. ...
    I hope you figure it out FL2AK.

    Do you know the twist rate on the .44? The Marlin .44s have a really-slow 1-38 twist rate. When I Googled the issue, it appears that some of the Winchester '94s also have that or a similar twist-rate, but they vary (e.g., .http://www.shootersforum.com/winches...t-loads-2.html).

    If it's a slow twist rate, like 1-38, that may be your problem with the 300+gr loads. BB has a comment about the Marlin's 1-38 .44 Mag. twist rate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalo Bore View Post
    Marlin (for an unknown, not well thought out reason) is using a very slow rate of twist (1/38 inches) on their 1894 chambered in 44 mag. Because of this slow rate of twist, the heaviest bullet that the factory Marlin will stabilize is about 270grs. Other firearm makers that chamber for the 44 mag all use a much faster rate of twist so that their guns will stabilize and therefore accurately shoot bullets over 300grs. Many folks today want their 44 magnums to be able to utilize the heavy 300gr. and heavier bullets - Marlin has not figured this out. If you want decent accuracy out of our new +p+ load in a Marlin, it will need to be re-barreled with a twist rate of roughly 1/20 inch.
    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...ct_detail&p=54

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    Twist rate doesn't make it shoot high or low, but would only cause big groups and/or keyholing because of insufficient stability, as in too heavy a bullet for too slow a twist rate.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunbugs View Post
    Twist rate doesn't make it shoot high or low, but would only cause big groups and/or keyholing because of insufficient stability, as in too heavy a bullet for too slow a twist rate.
    Bullets that hit the target (someplace) punched clean, round holes, at least at 50 yards. Who knows what they were doing at 100 (Probably flying over the berm.)

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    Yeah, I'm free from 2pm to 4pm tomorrow, working nights. The one shooting low is easy and I may have a spare sight that we can file to fit or file the original. Worst case on the one shooting high, I can braze a piece on top of the sight and file to fit. I'm betting Gun Bugs is real close on his figures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Yeah, I'm free from 2pm to 4pm tomorrow, working nights. The one shooting low is easy and I may have a spare sight that we can file to fit or file the original. Worst case on the one shooting high, I can braze a piece on top of the sight and file to fit. I'm betting Gun Bugs is real close on his figures.
    Yeah, I responded to your PM. I'll see you tomorrow.

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    sounds like a simple front sight replacement. they cost all of ten dollars, and all gunsmiths have gobs of spare ones kicking around. one needs a taller front sight, one needs a shorter front sight. if something small and petty (such as this) has the ability to infuriate you to this extent, what's gonna happen when you have a real problem, away from the roads during what appears to be, your first AK hunt?

  17. #17

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    What everyone else said...plus put a decent rear adjustable aperture sight on both of them with an appropriate height front sight...consider white bar outline if possible unless you KNOW you'll be hunting in snow...quit whining and go hunting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FL2AK-Old Town View Post
    This I have to respond to directly lol. The 30-30 is a pre-64 gun. The 44 is not.

    That other stuff, I don't hate service members as individuals or as people (having been one myself), I hate militarism, and violence. Those are two very different and distinguishable entities. But, please, let us not go there today. (You can PM me on that if you want. If you're really bored sometime)
    You still dont own a Model 70 i would seriously be looking to upgrade your inventory...

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    Member Matt's Avatar
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    Go hunt this weekend with the 243 and once you get back sell all those rifles and buy one good bolt action and be done with it. And a good scope.

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    I don't mean to sound snide, but waiting till the last minute to check gear is just asking to find problems that don't have time for an easy fix. On the other hand- there isn't an animal with antlers I wouldn't feel okay about shooting with a 243 at reasonable ranges. Lever guns and peep sights go together well- you might look into one (no pun intended).

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