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Thread: ADS-B, any experts on the matter here?

  1. #1
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Default ADS-B, any experts on the matter here?

    A friend of mine who runs an FBO and aviation newspaper called today and said he just received notification of his area being mandated to install ADS-B gear by the year 2020. Only a bit over 5 years from now.

    I figured there are probably a couple experts on the subject here.
    I am thinking of AK-Hunt who is already very knowledgeable on subjects like locator beacons.

    What is your take on the subject? Is it worth while in Alaska, will it drive small owners out of flying with the costs?
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    I'm by no means an expert, but it used to be called Capstone when was being tested in the YK delta.

    I remember one rescue i was on where a Grant 206 hit the only rise in terrain within 50 miles of Newtok. He was scud running, and thought that Capstone sent his Xponder alt data to the world. So, he dialed his altimeter up, lying to himself (Capstone uses GPS, not transponder). Hence, he had no idea how low he was.

    I think it's a great system if used properly, certainly adds to situational awareness. I however don't think it should be mandated. It's expensive, and as most on here know, not everyone who owns a plane is rich.... Not to mention the technical issues with some planes that lack an electrical system. I haven't priced one recently, but I remember them once costing in excess of $5K. That's going to park a lot of planes.
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    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Some Opinion: It looks like the most sane solution to integrating UAS/UAV's into the NAS. (UAS can't see and avoid...tho some operators will claim they can but I digress....) It comes at our expense, not the UAS community. We are small, small fish and the millions/billions behind UAS progression will likely roll right over us.
    As I see it this is the #1 threat to GA flyin as we CURRENTLY know it in the state of Alaska. If everyone wants a cause to rally behind and MF govt over, this is the one.

    Last I knew only ADS-B "out" was the only 2020 requirement. There was some scuttlebutt at one time about entire systems but just talk I think. Out is for others to see you, no real benefit to you in your cub flying hunters etc in remote AK for example. Its really the only sane way to share your air with UAS's. (Opinion again) Any piloted aircraft under VFR doesn't hit others by using ___________? CORRECT- Your eyeballs.

    You are on your own to understand the system. Wikipedia or whatever you need. Its not terribly complicated. I'm no expert for sure. I'll stick with beacons.
    The implications: thousand(s) of dollars of crap in your cub you don't want and the weight (not heavy unless we are talking cub, etc)
    Now someone can see you wherever you are. Remember, YOU see nothing unless you install the complete system. (go ahead, price it)

    More opinion: Now that AOPA basically expended all their political capital to fight the 406 ELT mandate (and won) and look like jerks in the end for it, their lobbying for us will likely be of marginal effect. I'd start writing your delegation twice a week from now till 2020 I guess?. We can start another thread on if you think it'll help. Its a "follow the money" situation.
    Chew on this: You fly a load of 5 tourists/hunters/whatever out and smash into a UAS cause you didn't install the system. What do you think happens then if you lived? Its gonna be hard not to protect yourself liability-wise.

    Moral of the story: Its not good for us. Its gonna be a tough one to stop, though with enough *****ing on our parts, its possible I think. Mostly because nobody is super supportive yet. I don't know what I should about it, admittedly.

    Edit: to address the "drive us out because of cost" queston-- Not THAT expensive, but add it to $10/gal 100LL in couple years and everything else; its not gonna feel good.

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    You can buy a little ADS-B In receiver and link it to the popular iPad apps for aviation. $600, but you'll only see ADS-B Out equipped aircraft.
    You can buy ADS-B In/Out transceivers for about $3500 but you still need a screen and install so double that price to get it done. But most guys expect the cost to come down as new players enter into the market. The 2020 mandate isn't news, that's been policy for a while now. I agree it seems to make sense for UAS integration but I think there's more to it, like an automated/computer controlled air traffic system. Time will tell. One thing's certain, nothing stays the same.

    http://www.garmin.com/us/intheair/ads-b

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    Will aircraft be able to fly in a non-transponder area without ADS-B?
    For the most part, the ADS-B Out mandate covers the same airspace where transponders are required. However, to be sure of the regulatory requirements it is best to check 14 CFR 91.225 for ADS-B-designated airspace and 14 CFR 91.215 for transponder-designated airspace.
    http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/implement...rams/adsb/faq/

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    You would then be transmitting your speed, altitude and location at all times for the system to monitor and record ???? Or did I get that wrong?
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
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    I just bought the Garmin 39GDL 3d which has ADS-B. I was told it will not be rule compliant, but decided to go ahead anyway as it does receive ADS-B. I used it last night for the first time and did pick up aircraft w/ it. Guess either I get smart and start talking back now, or use the time to keep abreast of technology which undoubtedly will change in the next 5-6 years, and likely get cheaper. Well, that is if the manufacturer's don't try to put the screws to us as the terminal end of the rule looms closer.
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    Using a Garmin GDL 39 in a float 206 in southeast this summer. Not sure how I made by without it before. Especially in crummy weather, being able to look at the screen, and know there is someone else there. I use it as a see and avoid, makes its much easier knowing where to look. If I dont see the other aircraft, I make sure I move plenty out of the way. It gives their alt in relation to yours, whether they are climbing/decending, and direction of flight. It only picks up the ADBS out guys, (air-to-air) so there are still plenty of us out there unseen. There is also ground-to-air traffic, which turns on around Juneau for me. I like to believe it's transitting all transponder traffic, but there's just too many to tell for sure. Whats really nice is the weather. I am able to look up atis and taf info of reporting stations. Being able to look at that and determine my best route home without poking and ducking through worse weather.

    I was sort of annoyed with capstone, but being able to have the info on the ipad app, and on the 695, is really nice, simply because I am far more familiar with garmin usability.

    Dual GPS now makes a similar product that works with several other GPS apps, such as the free app Avare.

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    Are you guys using Garmin Aviator on an iPad with the GDL39? Was the synthetic vision improved with the GDL? If so, how much?

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    I meant Garmin Pilot. The app.

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    yes we are. I have only played with the synthetic vision once, and never without the GDL. I'll play with it more next time I'm out.

  12. #12

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    So I had a chance to play with the syn vision. There was no attitude information, but seemed somewhat accurate. I prefer just the map mode myself. I guess in a last ditch effort, I wouldn't throw it out the window.

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    Thanks. I bought a GDL39 3D. The synthetic vision is fun but I prefer the map as well. I haven't tried both with a split screen view yet. My iPad is now a more functional and more user friendly aviation GPS than my panel mounted Aera is. And I can see it better.

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    Can't split screen the synthetic vision. With the 3D's attitude info displayed I don't guess I'd need to anyway. I reloaded the terrain and used the high resolution version. It makes the map and the synthetic vision views much better. If your device has capacity for the 600mb terrain download I recommend it.

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