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Thread: Re-Issue of Military Drawing Permits

  1. #1
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    Default Re-Issue of Military Drawing Permits

    I recently picked up the new regs from Fish and Game (the front photo is spectacular) and I was reading up on the new changes for the upcoming regulation year. I read with great interest the following:

    "Active duty resident military who are unable to use drawing or Tier II permits due to being deployed to an active combat zone may:

    For Drawing Hunts: be reissued the same drawing permit for the following year when the person returns to this state from active duty.

    ..."

    Is this misworded? I was under the impression from Mark Richards statement that this was intended for folks whose deployments were EXTENDED beyond the scheduled deployment unexpectedly.

    Question is: Does anyone who is deployed get a reissued drawing tag not just folks whose deployments were unexpectedly prolonged?

    Gooch

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    Default Tags

    I beleive the original plan was for those of us who were extended and couldnt use the tags that we would be reissued those permits for the next season, but I am sure the state know's that we will be deployed again and are looking into the future for when this same problem occurs and decided that they would reissue the permits to us. I drew the Grizzly tag off the haul road and didnt get to use it but I am going to try to get that back this year...well see what happens.

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    Default Deployment

    Thanks Bowtech. I thought that may be the reason as well. What troubles me is that the way it reads is that ANY deployed military member can get a reissue not just the ones who are kept beyond the initial deployment date. People were lead to beleive (which garnered support) that it was for folks who had plans that they now couldn't carry out due to extensions. If the state wants to reissue permits to any deployed member not just extensions I think it sets a bad precedent.

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    Default My thoughts

    Like I said , I think initially it was for just those of us who were extended but they opened it up for "any" deployed soldier just so there is noone crying about it if you know what I mean. This really sounds bad for even me to say but those of us who are in the military and are deployed during those season should not even be eligible to apply for those hunts if we are not going to be there to fullfill the commitment of the hunt but the state looks at it as money in the bank. I think it is great to give back to those of us for what we do and give but noone saw the extension coming and didnt expect us not to be home for the hunting season so not only did it throw a wrench in our plans it also did to the state also. I think it is great they are doing this but if your not going to be here for that season you shouldnt even apply, let somone else have the chance to get a permit they are really wanting.

  5. #5

    Angry I knew it

    My father and I whom drew a tag several years ago and could not go because of his health issue's, any less deserving than todays military? I think not!!! He served in WWII and now he is gone. So lets dig him up and give him a permit. Life is tough and I knew this would happen, all you flag wavers should be happy now! I hope its your pemit they draw. Thank you for the people in our military whom made this comment possible. I love ya dad.

    Louie

  6. #6

    Angry Sorry we're (military) in your way!

    Many of the posts involving military on this site enjoy accentuating the negative - like we're some sort transistory nuisance that competes unfairly with "real" residents.

    Many of these permits (like Kodiak bear) can only be applied for a year in advance. The fall permits offer a window of 3 to 5 months from time of application to time of the hunt.

    Many of us in the military can get short turned deployed inside of a month or two without warning regardless of our expected deployment timeline. Its called "needs of the mission." Apparently, the state felt this was a condition worthy of an excemption.

    Its apparent by some of these posts that people feel military folks are getting a unfair advantage or benefit. I find that ironic, considering the rather profound sense of entitlement exercised by a wide variety of more established groups here in Alaska.

    As to military members who knowingly apply for permit, when they know they will be gone... well, that is an "ethical" debate - you want it codified into law to address the difference between the two different cases, call your representatives. Complaining about military people gains you nothing - we don't make the laws.

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    Default This isn't military bashing

    Whoa there Ucohokie. This isn't intended to be a military bash fest just trying to figure out how this happened. Alaska Louie was upset but respectful. I agree the 'flag wavers' got this to happen after the fence riders were sucked in by the 'unintentional extension' of the service members in the sand. The state has made a decision but one that is discriminatory to a vast majority of Alaskans. Military members ARE getting unfair benefits. If deployments count for exemptions then folks need to also have the ability to have exemptions that happen in life and work.

    As for the ethical debate on how many folks would put in knowingly even though they were being deployed - I would have to assume that number would be high. Quite frankly I would do it and I consider myself moderately ethical. Hey it's a permit.

    Hey Mark, where does the Backcountry Hunters stand? Your letter specified a one time deal if I remember correctly.

    Gooch

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    Member Alaska Gray's Avatar
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    Default

    I'm all for it. Another way to support our troops.
    Living the Alaskan Dream
    Gary Keller
    Anchorage, AK

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    Default Good Deal

    I think its great. I'm going to go outside and wave my flag now. Just for you alaskalouie. Your veteran father is probably rolling in his grave over your comments. The people in the military didn't make your comments possible, only you can take credit for that.

    On a couple of occasions while the Brigade at Wainwright was deployed, I had the privledge of having lunch with some of the wounded soldiers that were here recovering. The converstion often turned to hunting. One of the soldiers with pretty extensive wounds wondered if he would be able to hunt again. He was latter awarded the DSC. Go look these guys in the eye and tell them they don't deserve this.
    Last edited by AKJD; 06-07-2007 at 19:51.

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    Default Loose language

    Gooch,

    The original idea was those who got extended. The idea grew.

    The Board of Game could have tightened the proposal so it applied if the orders came in after the application deadline for the permit, but they chose not to.

    It gives an extra bite at the apple, but I don't imagine most of our military men and women will treat it that way. And if some do, I'm not sure it materially changes everyone else's odds at Delta bison or TMA sheep anyway.

    Even if got a little loose at the BOG, it was the right thing to do.

  11. #11
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    Default For now against

    When all this started over a year ago, it was all about one military member who was deployed but scheduled to return a month or two prior to the hunting season, he applied in good faith that he would be back and able to use his permit. He was lucky enough to draw a TOK permit, but the military had other plans and he was involuntarly extended and was not back in time to use his permit.

    The hunting community pulled together to try and help out. After many of us wrote, called and or emailed our politicans, the state decided to reissue his and others like him thier permits. I was all for those who where caught up in being stuck in the sand getting a so called refund.

    Now the but, it was intended for those who should have been back in time, not for those who know that they will not be around when the hunting season comes around.

    FT Wainwright will deploy agian around the first of the year, they will be gone for 18 months, They will NOT be gack for the 08 and possible the 09 seasons, but as the regs read now, one can apply for a permit, knowing they wont be here, get drawn, and then get it reissued the same permit the next season they will be around.

    Im sorry, but that was not the intent, nor do I beleive so many would have rallied around this individual in such a senario. I think those who should have been back in time to use thier permits should get it reissued. I spent 21 years in the military and know how fast things can change. I dont think it should be a free pass for everyone and that it should be handled on a case by case basis.

    What about the civilans that work for the armed forces. If this is to be fair, then is should apply to those civilian employees that deploy with them, to the same place doing the same work, living in the same tents, serving the same country. Should they be treated in differently. What about those contractors who are sent to the desert, they are serving our country, should it apply to them? Where does it end? Putting a blanket policy for all military members was a bit too much.

    Watch what happens, over the next few seasons. The state will get hammered with requests from all sorts asking for the same thing. Those whos job sends them out of town, those who get sick, those who has a family member pass away, by everyone who could not hunt because of a situation that was out of thier control.

    This isnt about someone deserving something! this was and still is about what was the right thing to do for certain individuals. Even if all the military hunters apply knowing they wont be in town when it comes time to hunt, it wont have much if any effect on draw results for everone else. This is about what the intent was. Too me its like saying Im getting married to receive all the gifts when I knew I wasnt getting married to begin with.

    Yes they will apply, and I yes, i would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. But that dont make it right

  12. #12
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    Default I agree ucohokie

    ucohokie said it right, we don't have choices as to when we deploy, thats kind of the whole idea of the military nowadays. We are supposed to be ready to go at all times on a moments notice.

    I didn't join the military to go to different countries to fight wars, rather I knew it was something that could happen and I would do it if called upon. People must think military members are war mongers or something, we aren't. We just believe that our country needs to protect us, and protect people in the world that can't protect themselves.

    I'm sure all of the young men and women who have lost their lives in this most recent war would have loved to have the opportunity to grow as old as your father must have from WWII Louie, but they don't have that option. I am proud that your dad fought in that war, as did my grandfathers, they deserve all the respect in the world.

  13. #13
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    Default ucohokie

    Your right, you or the military didnt make the laws, nor did they make the changes to the regs. But you should understand one thing. Its very likely that this change would not have come about if not for all of the folks (like myself) from this site that understand the sacrifices that the military make each and evry day, and took the time to contract thier represenitives to ask for these permits to be reissued. You should be a bit more greatful, you did nothing but come across as someone that was intitled

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    Default Just curious....

    Is this a fight because someone didn't get drawn for a tag or a bash at the military that got deployed...then extended and lost their chance to hunt due to the US government's policies?

    I respect the father that went to war in WWII because mine did too. I have no sympathy for not going hunting or having tags re-issued due to health reasons. If that happened...everyone with the flu during hunting season would have a case.

    I respect the fact that people get pissed because they didn't get drawn for a tag after soooo many years of applying. That doesn't mean they are right when they gripe about a particular soldier or airmen getting their tags re-issued because they went to war to protect their country (whether you believe in the cause or not it is true).

    The main difference between the civilian contractors and the military people they serve with or deploy with....the civilians can quit at ANY time. So NO...they do NOT deserve the same rights as the guy that is in a contract and can be sent to jail for saying NO. The civilians CHOSE to go and be there! And no, I don't care if they are retired military or not.

    In today's society it is perceived that it is OK to bash the military, bash the cause and push your own agenda while doing so. In the case of soldiers and airmen being re-issued tags that they would have otherwise been able to use...if you didn't vote...shut the hell up and deal with it. If you did vote, you are obviously in the minority and you need to petition your congressman or representative to change it. If you are a veteran and complaining...shame on you and go live in Massachusetts (to live with John Kerry)! Better yet, make a date with Jane Fonda....

    Honestly...for a state that is "supposedly" PRO-military...I find it appalling that so many complain like Cubans that they are being mistreated, misrepresented or just simply overlooked by the system. The military gave you what you have now...period. Study history for 10 minutes in the period of 1940-1946 and you'll see that we'd be speaking German or Japanese NOW had the military NOT done their job then. When they do their job NOW...all the liberals do is complain. Appalling! It is no wonder guns are under fire and in danger of being banned or restricted!

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    Member H_I_L_L_B_I_L_L_Y's Avatar
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    Default Sad!

    kirovpdr well said.......... Alaska louie im sure you father would be proud! I will say this if we as military abuse this expect to get bashed. Allot of people worked hard to get this to happen dont misuse it. Hillbilly

  16. #16

    Question akhunter02

    Reread my post. I don't feel entitled. I could care less one way or the other on the states decision to reissue the tags. But that is what the state decided, and for those who you who lobbied for it -thank you. All I'm asking is you wag the disapproving finger at the state and not us if you don't like the decision because we didn't do anything to Alaska except call it home for awhile.

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    Default

    KirovPDR, Well said. Back in 2005 I drew the Eklutna Lake archery only sheep hunt with my buddy on a party application. I was scheduled for the ferry out of Kodiak Saturday morning and was picking up my buddy at the Anchorage Airport Sunday. He had recently transfered to North Carolina. We were beginning our hunt the following day for 2 weeks. Well that Friday morning the day before I was to get on the Ferry, I walked into work and by that afternoon I was on a plane heading for New Orleans for Hurricane Katrina rescue efforts as a Coast Guard Helicopter Rescue Swimmer. 3 weeks later I returned home and walked into my house to see my backpack and bow sitting there as I had left it. So much for that hunt.

    Reason I tell this is, I could argue that I had a reason to be issued another tag the following year. But I won't. Sure I wrote a letter to the Fish and Game board and inquiring about the possibility of another tag and was politely declined and I accepted their explanation.

    What I cannot listen to anymore and there seems to be more and more of it as time goes by is the "what about me" "what do I get" "hey I'm special too" etc etc etc.

    Waa Waa Waa. Get over it! They made a decision that I happen to agree with. Did they include the Coast Guard in this for instances such as Katrina? No. Am I complaining or whining? No.

    akhunter02, you said

    "Yes they will apply, and I yes, i would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. But that dont make it right"

    Says a lot about you.

    I for one would not apply and have done exactly that (not applied) in the past knowing I would be deployed to the Bering Sea to watch over the King Crab fleet. Not all people are like you. Most people honorably serving their country I believe have more integrity than that. Those that don't, karma will catch up with them.

    That being said, everyone has the right to their opinions thanks in large part to the men and women who have served this country in the armed services in the past and are doing so today. Just wanted to express my opinion also.

    Take care,

    Wil

  18. #18
    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default Bashing?

    I havent seen anyone bash the military in this thread, NOT anyone. I served 21 years, made many sacrifices, spent months and years away from my family, everyone who joins knows dam well theres a very good chance they will end up over there or some where else they dont want to be. Hell theres plenty that dont want to be in Alaska

    Yes civilians can quit if they dont want to go, but I dont think any would quit just to avoid going, if they felt so strongely about that they wouldnt have taken a job that deployed them, thats the nature of the job, just like it is for the activety duty military. I work with a few that deploy with the military and one was just sent when he wasnt to go again untill Oct, should he be intitled to his money back on any booked hunts? Many charters do that for you , many do not, so it happens to more than just the military.

    Correct me if Im wrong, but I do beleive that all branches of the armed forces are all VOLUNTEER. Anyone who joined in the last 5 to 10 years should have know that they would have ended up in the desert. After all we have been messing around that part of the world for years.

    I for one think its great that those who get deployed have options when it comes to lost chances, Im just pointing out that thats not how it all started.

    We all supported giving those permits to those that lost their chance at no fault of there own. But giving everyone a free pass was not

  19. #19
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    Default I agree with kirovpdr

    I believe the regs stated that anyone deployed to an "active combat zone designated by executive order issued by the President of the United States" may be re-issued the same drawing/permit when they return. I think that is fair. I wouldn't think that any TRUE AMERICAN would argue that. I highly doubt that anybody knowing that they are going to be gone is going to put in for a drawing. I think I'm going to go and wave my flag right know too.

  20. #20
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    Default Explanation from Mark Richards

    Quote Originally Posted by Gooch
    Is this misworded? I was under the impression from Mark Richards statement that this was intended for folks whose deployments were EXTENDED beyond the scheduled deployment
    Gooch and everyone,

    Alaska Backcountry Hunters and Anglers sent in these comments to the Board of Game about this:
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters....20comments.pdf

    Those above comments are posted on our ABHA website, and if you read them carefully, you'll see what our clear intent was on this. I personally spent a lot of time on that particular issue to try to get it right, with the help of others on this forum, and ex and current military personnel. Also read the letter at the end of those comments sent in by Jason. He also expressed the thoughts many have here, which I fully agree with. His wife, Heather, spent a helluva lot of time on this issue getting names of soldiers affected, contacting commanders to help intervene with the Board, and setting a lot of this in motion. My hat is off to her...and the fact that she and Jason will be out on the TMA hunt this August pleases me very much. He deserved it, and so did all the other troops who were extended and missed their hunts.

    We asked the Board to reword the proposal so there would not be any potential for abuse. That's how our comments differed from others sent in. After all this went down, I spoke with a man, active military, who will remain nameless, who said he was working on the actual rewriting of the statutes that would cover this, and we had some strong disagreements about some things, particularly if the new statute in the way it was written would allow any military personnel to apply for a drawing permit if he or she knew for certain ahead of time they would not be back to participate in the hunt. I could not control the final wording; that was totally out of my hands.

    The org I co-chair did the best we could to try to help. We continue to try to find ways to help our military, and are now working on a program to try to help get meat to the military families whose hunters are deployed and won't be here this fall to hunt. But frankly, in all honesty, I've been a bit disappointed in what actual help there is out there. There is certainly a lot of "support our troops" vitriol, but in too many cases it ends there...too few seem really willing to do things to help our troops. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, but I'd be remiss if I didn't flat-out tell everyone that when it comes to the proverbial crunch time, the real support out there is a lot less than what I read on this and other forums.

    If anyone out there is interested in helping with the game-meat to dependent military families, please check out this link:
    http://alaskabackcountryhunters.org/...dependents.htm
    We don't have it all worked out yet...but if it's something you guys out there feel is needed and may help, we'd like to "get 'er done." Thanks.
    Sincerely,


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