Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Poor timing?

  1. #1
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,218

    Default Poor timing?

    Subject is a Ruger Blackhawk with Power Custom Free Spin Pawl; all other internals are factory: 3 chambers consistently lock up tight, 3 chambers consistently lock up looser (always the same 3). All other functions of the lockworks feel flawless...

    Bent base pin? I don't think so.

    Inconsistent pawl engagement? Seems to be the case.

    Reducing the height of the pawl at lockup will ease the tightness of the 3, but logic dictates it will also slightly increase the looseness of the other side...

    So... reduce the height of the pawl slightly, and perhaps add a Belt Mtn base pin with hopes of reducing some of the play overall?

    Still troubled by the consistent inconsistency. That can only indicate a lack of concentricity somewhere within the cylinder geometry, yes?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,600

    Default

    If it locks up good with the factory pawl I would just convert it to free spin. It just takes a bit of filing on the upper left tip of the pawl.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

  3. #3
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    Very hard to say without inspecting the gun but my first thought is 3 of the indexing notches were cut with an old cutter then the others cut after a tool change to a fresh cutter. Pull the cylinder and cairfuley measure them for width and depth. if that is the case addressing the different size of the notches (enlarge the small ones) would be the starting point.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Building guns in the shadow of Appalachia
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Very common problem, we deal with it on a regular basis. And not just with the Power parts either. Many Rugers have this same issue.

    Best/easiest solution is to just file in the three 'fast' ratchet teeth until all six are more or less timing the same.

    Sent from my SCH-I915 using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k_randomfactor View Post
    Very common problem, we deal with it on a regular basis. And not just with the Power parts either. Many Rugers have this same issue.

    Best/easiest solution is to just file in the three 'fast' ratchet teeth until all six are more or less timing the same.

    Sent from my SCH-I915 using Tapatalk
    Well that would be a true timing issue but what he discribe sounds like a lock-up issue with the pawl and notch to me???
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Building guns in the shadow of Appalachia
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Sorry for the delay in posting back, but between moving all my crap into a storage unit and getting to Fairbanks, been a hectic few days.

    Andy, for this, I'd treat the two problems the same, because the slight alignment issue is causing a timing issue. I don't know for certain, but am pretty sure Ruger cuts the ratchet teeth, then uses them to index off of to cut the notches. If they don't get them quite indexed right... so yeah, it is *probably* a minor misalignment between the notches and the ratchet. Much easier IME to fix the alignment issue at the teeth.

    Setting up and recutting the notches is a PITA, but 5min with a barrette file will take care of the issue. Done dozens of them this way, with this exact same issue.

    Sent from my SCH-I915 using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k_randomfactor View Post
    Sorry for the delay in posting back, but between moving all my crap into a storage unit and getting to Fairbanks, been a hectic few days.

    Andy, for this, I'd treat the two problems the same, because the slight alignment issue is causing a timing issue. I don't know for certain, but am pretty sure Ruger cuts the ratchet teeth, then uses them to index off of to cut the notches. If they don't get them quite indexed right... so yeah, it is *probably* a minor misalignment between the notches and the ratchet. Much easier IME to fix the alignment issue at the teeth.

    Setting up and recutting the notches is a PITA, but 5min with a barrette file will take care of the issue. Done dozens of them this way, with this exact same issue.

    Sent from my SCH-I915 using Tapatalk
    I would think that, If the problem is happening only on SOME chambers, that would be where the problem lies, in the chamber notches. Regardless of the ability to make it work, by grinding on the ratchet. Since that would make some of the notches LOOSE.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Building guns in the shadow of Appalachia
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Not if you only work on the "tight" teeth.

    At my 'real' job (at Bowen's) filing in teeth to correct minor timing issues is a common fix to this problem. We do it all the time, and seems to work for us. If someone would rather set up and recut the notches, don't let me stop you. Too much time and effort to achieve the same result to my thinkin'.

    Chris

  9. #9
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,218

    Default

    Well, upon spending some time paying very close attention to what the gun was telling me, and thus becoming more edumacated, it appears that k_randomfactor was spot on.

    Careful measurement indicated that the Power pawl was a tiny bit longer than the factory pawl. When engaged, the excess length made evident the slightly sloppy tolerance of the cylinder ratchet teeth to latch notch indexing, which was not easily discernible with the shorter factory pawl in play.

    I shortened the Power pawl ever so slightly, until the three excessively "tight" engagements locked up at just neutral, with virtually no play, and without any bind being caused to the internal lockworks/timing. This leaves me with three nearly perfect engagements, and three slightly looser engagements...

    The more correct solution would have been to leave the pawl at full length, and file the three tight ratchet engagements until they became consistent with the three slightly looser engagements. That would provide the most consistent lockup from one chamber to the next that this gun is capable of without a full custom makeover.

    It was a good learning experience, and I may go at it again with a new pawl. I need to procure the proper file(s) for working the cylinder teeth first tho. The greatest challenge (for me) that I can see there, will be determining and keeping track of which teeth are which.

    An interesting note is that I have a second cylinder from the same model gun, separated by about a dozen serial numbers, and that cylinder locks up exactly the same as the first. So, at least they were consistent.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Building guns in the shadow of Appalachia
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Glad you got it worked out bud.

    Sent from my SCH-I915 using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,218

    Default

    Just had it out for a test drive... Still have some tinkering to do, I reckon. Thanks for everybody's input.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    I shortened the Power pawl ever so slightly, until the three excessively "tight" engagements locked up at just neutral, with virtually no play, and without any bind being caused to the internal lockworks/timing. This leaves me with three nearly perfect engagements, and three slightly looser engagements...

    The more correct solution would have been to leave the pawl at full length, and file the three tight ratchet engagements until they became consistent with the three slightly looser engagements. That would provide the most consistent lockup from one chamber to the next that this gun is capable of without a full custom makeover.
    That makes sense.

    I broke the Locking Bolt on a Colt SA Army, one time ago.

    I gave it to a guy who said he "Cut his teeth" working on SAs. Well, it didn't even work when I got it back from him, so I took it to a real Gunsmith who sent it back to Colt. It had very pronounced RING around the cylinder where the Locking Bolt had been rubbing. The bolt had required some fitting so it would engage the notches in the cylinder at the proper time.

    That's when I learned something about the complexities of the Colt SA Army. I had another problem with it later. The spring for the "bolt" broke, but I was able to fix that myself.

    Quite a few years after that I traded it off for A New Model Ruger Blackhawk, that had Coil Springs and parts that didn't break. And, the best part was, I got $200.00 boot on top of the Ruger Blackhawk. (Which has never given my a lick of trouble over all these years.)

    I wouldn't own another Colt SA. IME, they be too fragile.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  13. #13
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,218

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k_randomfactor View Post
    Not if you only work on the "tight" teeth.
    And that's exactly what I did today.

    First I installed a PC base pin; it was a perfectly snug drop in, and eliminated any excess cylinder play. End shake is currently only about .002; can't argue with that. Then I dropped in a new PC free-spin pawl...

    That gave me three chambers which locked up pretty nicely (tho there is a gradual progression from loosest to tightest which would seem to indicate an issue with concentricity); one chamber with which the trigger sear would only just barely engage with a bit of force applied on the hammer; and two chambers with which the sear would not engage at all. After working over those three teeth with a #2 barrette file, timing and lockup is now as consistent and snug as it's going to get with this particular cylinder.

    Not sure what effect this has had on chamber to bore alignment...hopefully not detrimental. Maybe I can squeeze in some range time tomorrow.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  14. #14
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,600

    Default

    Should be a good sound shooter and meat taker. Glad you worked it out.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •