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Thread: And the Kasilof starts with a BANG!

  1. #1

    Default And the Kasilof starts with a BANG!

    7,587 Sockeye counted on the first day!

    From what I could tell, largest first day count in the last 20 years - maybe longer - that's as far back as I looked.

    Early or not, these are strong numbers for the Kasilof. Gentlemen, start your engines...

  2. #2

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    Another strong day for Sockeye in the Ditch...

    One thing I noticed is that historically any day now the Crooked Creek weir should be showing some signs of life. If all of the runs are early like suspected, that should have already happened or should happen soon, no? I know that inriver harvest can affect that weir quite a bit. Embarrassed to say I don't know - are they king fishing on the Kasilof right now, or have these fish not showed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Embarrassed to say I don't know - are they king fishing on the Kasilof right now, or have these fish not showed?
    They've been fishing, and catching, kings for awhile now. From what I hear nothing to write home about, seeing that you can't keep a native....
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    ... Buuut you can play one half to death...

    Ha. Just kidding. Kind of.

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    I must say smith last year with the same regulations if I recall correctly, Crooked Creek had a very good year king wise. It's still early this year and with low water in the tributary streams, due to lack of snowmelt, it will be interesting to see what the kings do.

  6. #6

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    Kasilof still killing it...

    Crooked Creek Weir now ahead of last year...

    Here fishy fishy...

    Would hope to see a revised projection for the Kenai ER Kings, along with a revised projection or forecast for the LR, seeing as how we have been relying on the ER-LR correlation so heavily in the last few years. Would hate to see fishermen out of the water when there is an abundance of fish, which there appears to be.

  7. #7
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    WHOOP! there it is….



    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/ap.../421902799.pdf



    As of 8:00 a.m. on Sunday, June 22, 2014, nearly 82,000 sockeye salmon are estimated to have passed the Kasilof River sonar site. This is the second largest cumulative escapement ever measured in the Kasilof River through this date. Therefore, this announcement opens the set gillnet fishery in the Kasilof Section in order to slow the rate of escapement of sockeye salmon into the Kasilof River.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    How was the fishing, tb?
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    The KeenEye MD

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    How was the fishing, tb?
    He is probably still fishing. But it may be a dollar short and a day late. When fish are building on the beach and the counts are starting to go up ADF&G waits until the back side of a push to fish. Not a good sockeye to chinook ratio when that happens. I hope the push is still on but the numbers do not reflect that right now. Also, they are so far ahead of the curve in escapement that more fishing time is needed if they kill less than at the peak of this first push. If Kasilof is one million strong then there is a lot of fish to be harvested and you want those sockeye to chinook numbers to be good. Otherwise when Kenai comes there may not be any fishing time. It is a hard fishery to manage and I respect that - just thinking the politics of user groups came into play already for this year.

  10. #10

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    Fishing was so-so but I'm not complaining. As Nerka said, we caught the tail end of that slug of fish I believe. As for the sockeye to King ratios - they don't get much better. Didn't see a king all day. But then again, I AM an ESSN, so you know I must be lying about my king catch...

    Yes, unless we get some hours when it counts, the Kasilof is gonna get slammed and will end up a terminal fishery again. I've tried to talk ADFG into letting the Kasilof district fish 600' from shore only rather than the terminal area - would likely be effective at killing Kasilof sockeye and less kenai kings, and WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL WE TRY - however for some reason ADFG upper level management is opposed to it. It's already in the plan. Don't know why they refuse to even try it, but now would be the time. Those fish are hugging the beach right now.

    I expect to see another push of fish on Thursday, and again on Saturday. Seriously though, any day I'll bet we see another slug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Fishing was so-so but I'm not complaining. As Nerka said, we caught the tail end of that slug of fish I believe. As for the sockeye to King ratios - they don't get much better. Didn't see a king all day. But then again, I AM an ESSN, so you know I must be lying about my king catch...

    Yes, unless we get some hours when it counts, the Kasilof is gonna get slammed and will end up a terminal fishery again. I've tried to talk ADFG into letting the Kasilof district fish 600' from shore only rather than the terminal area - would likely be effective at killing Kasilof sockeye and less kenai kings, and WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL WE TRY - however for some reason ADFG upper level management is opposed to it. It's already in the plan. Don't know why they refuse to even try it, but now would be the time. Those fish are hugging the beach right now.

    I expect to see another push of fish on Thursday, and again on Saturday. Seriously though, any day I'll bet we see another slug.
    smithtb - ADF&G can only use time and area modifications if there is a conservation issue. So far early run chinook are on track to meet the goal and of course there are few to zero early run fish on the beach, next late run chinook based on the early run to late run regression indicate a stronger return than forecasted, and sockeye are fine. So to limit the nets to the beach would require ADF&G to justify it with a conservation concern which does not exist right now. If they did it they would be allocating resources and that is not what one wants ADF&G to do. There is no provision in the plans to go outside of them unless the goals will not be met.

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    12 kings caught in the set net opener.
    Already hearing a push to eo Saturday.
    Better hope there are more kings which would indicate a good second run coming, especially since f&g think it is an early run timing this year.

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    Smithtb, weren't you complaining about no data to support shortening nets as a step down method to reduce king harvest but still catch sockeye?

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    12 kings caught in the set net opener.
    Already hearing a push to eo Saturday.
    Better hope there are more kings which would indicate a good second run coming, especially since f&g think it is an early run timing this year.
    That's right, 12 Kings caught by the Setnetters. Approx. 21,904 reds. That's a red-to-king ratio of 1,825 to 1. Oh yeah, the drifters caught 19 Kings and only 16,436 Reds, for a ratio of 865 to 1. That's right, the drifters were the primary harvester of Kings on Monday. Better start cutting you nets boys. The Canucks recommend a mesh depth of 15... Ha ha.

    Yukon, if the ESSN's had caught 300 Kings on Monday, you would be screaming that they caught too many Kings and should not fish. How can we win? Why are you ignoring that historically this time is a good time for killing Kasilof reds without a large King harvest?

    Have you also forgotten about the Early Run - Late Run correlation (which your representatives have used the last several years to keep us closed) which would suggest that the Late Run will also be much stronger than forecast? I have a hard time believing they could run the regression model and come up with anything less than a number which would warrant you fishing with bait for the late run, and me fishing according to the Sockeye plan rather than being held to your king plan. I say your king plan because there is nothing in it for me even if 100,000 Kings return, like in the Mat-Su. Only restrictions.

    Have they updated the projection for the LR yet?

    Already a push to EO Saturday? How about today? Or Yesterday. For Christ's sake man, the Kings are making goals, and the Kasilof Sockeye are breaking every record in the book, on track to surpass even last year's over-escapement.

    If not now, when? Never? Are you one of those guys?

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    Caught and reported are two different things smithtb - not suggesting anything illegal - but the word on the street is that a number of set net fisherman are releasing kings caught in their nets in the hope that they make it to the river. I know this sounds great to the average Joe but in reality it is self defeating. If I as a manager only saw 12 kings reported and thought that was true I would be in a bind - is the run really weak or did the release of kings happen. In this situation a manager has to assume the kings are weak without data on the release numbers. So I would suggest that KPFA and other fishing organizations start keeping track of released fish and report them on a voluntary program to ADF&G. If numbers stay low the ESSN catch rates become a thorn in your side as the run will look very weak.

    I have never been an advocate for releasing chinook out the nets. First they take a long time to reach the river so they are likely to be caught again, it confuses the data base for management, and if one fisherman gets caught selling chinook and not reporting everyone who is fishing will be labeled as doing this as the numbers are low. So it is not good for the industry or management.

    I think KPFA should be a leader here and have a full out effort to get people to just be fisherman and not try to game the system.

  16. #16

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    Nerka I wouldn't put too much faith in the "word on the street" about setnetters - Ricky'd have you believing we're all murdering rapists before it's all through Yes, we can't win for losing. If we catch them, we shouldn't have. If we don't catch them, we should have, and if we let them go we are gaming the system.

    You are correct - King harvest stats for the ESSN's are now crap - much like the King harvest stats for the drifters have been for the last 3 decades. Yukon's sportfish reps have made sure that we can never again use UCI harvest stats to estimate King run strength.

    I did not question the ESSN King harvest numbers on Monday because as I already stated, I did not catch a single King. Did not release a single king - NO KINGS IN THESE NETS. For what that's worth.

    As for releasing Kings - it is completely legal to release Kings from a net. There are no laws against it, and released Kings do not have to be reported. As for voluntarily reporting the Kings which are released, why? So we can argue about what % of those kings survived? If ADFG thinks that is important, they can require us to report it quite easily. If fishermen want to roll kings it is up to them. I, like you, was opposed to it last year, but after seeing how the politics of this whole fight work at the BOF and within ADFG - I don't care any longer because it really doesn't matter.

    Yukon, as for the 29 mesh and having data to prove it works - yes it was stupid and foolish for your goons to get it passed with no real data to support it. But now that it has passed I suspect 29 mesh will be highly effective at letting kings slip through - I doubt my 29 mesh gear will ever catch a single King. Just the way you guys want it, right?

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    Like I stated - commercial fisherman are the own worst enemy - but so be it

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Like I stated - commercial fisherman are the own worst enemy - but so be it
    Right. Because we're the ones bribing ADFG officials and BOF members with cushy retirement plans and monetary/political favors. We're the ones quoting false statistics and lying about the escapements, returns, and economic numbers, and pushing for the abolition of commercial fishing in UCI. We're the ones with the motto "Alaskans shouldn't have to buy their fish from commercial fishermen."

    Perhaps you could explain how voluntarily reporting every single king that touches my net - whether it escapes alive or not - is going to help me at this point? So we can continue the discussion about dropout mortality?

    Look Nerka - you are a biologist. I get that you want to manage these runs scientifically. I want that too. But that isn't the world we live in and I still want to go fishing, so we adapt. I stood before the BOF and told them how this would play out. I told them and ADFG that they should not be managing off of ESSN king harvest because many of us would be releasing Kings if there was low abundance since we are now a commercial Sockeye fishery managed by ADFG sport fish according to King escapement.

    If I posted that I would never in a million years release a live King, there would be someone else on this forum telling me I'm my own worst enemy.

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    If ADF&G is attempting to estimate the run-size of Chinook based on the rate of incident interception during the harvest of sockeye, they need to require anyone participating in the fishery to report the number of Chinook encountered, especially the number released. I realize that verifying the number of fish released is impossible, since the fish are released (duh). But ADF&G should also tell the participants that it is in their own best interest to report exactly the number they caught and kept (if legal to do so), and the number caught and released. Everyone understands the need for an accurate run-size estimate, regardless of the gear being used, or which side of the debate your on.

    But maybe I need to take off my rose-colored eye glasses.......

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    smithtb - your posts sums up some of the problems with the BOF process. I was talking about being your own worst enemy relative to management of the fishery - so you can go fishing. So if you would have kept a fish in your net and release it instead then you keep track of that. Simple - if you would have put it in the skiff under normal situation then write it down. It is scientific management to do this which is what you want.

    So here is how it would work. As the season goes along ADF&G would be getting these reports. So during the season they could look at what they think the ESSN program would predict for the total return - if nothing more than good, bad or ugly. At the end of the season they could have an idea of how many fish were released and see if it made a difference in the escapement counts or impacted the total harvest. It may be that the fish die or just get caught in another net. There is no use to do this and waste a resource if the fish do not make it to the river.

    Also, it gives you some documentation of your voluntary program for use with the public.

    smithtb - when I was President of the Chinook Salmon Fund commercial fisherman did this and it worked for those who participated. We figured out that maybe 50% of the fish could be released in some years for some sites. We did not have enough coverage to make an estimate for the whole beach.

    Also, chinook released closer to the river may have a better chance. I would even go so far to tag some fish with ADF&G help to see what makes it to the river or into a sport fish harvest. What a nice report it would be that said of the XXXX fish released this many made it to the river and this many went into the sport fish harvest.

    So smithtb - while you just want to fish and I appreciate that the industry needs to survive. Being a victim of a bad process, which is true, will not make the industry survive and someday in the near future you will not fish at all (2012 may be the future if proactive programs are not started in all areas - technical (example above), legal ( question BOF process), and political.

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