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Thread: .454 casull crimp jump in different ammo makers

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    Thumbs up .454 casull crimp jump in different ammo makers

    Shot yesterday, Taurus raging bull. 45 rounds of HSM .454 bear loads (325gr) of the 45 I shot I had at least 5+ lockups. One had jumped halfway out of the case.
    20 BB +p 45LC two lockups.

    When I was done I wasn't very happy and much less confident in the ammo and there was a lot of flyers from my gun. On the way Home I happened across some BB Heavy .454 loads. I opened the box and compared the crimp of the HSM, BB 45LC and the barnes XPB. The difference in crimp was obvious. The crimp of the Barnes and HSM .454s was identical as well as the BB 45LCs. the BB heavy .454 crimp was much much harder. while I didn't get to shoot them I don't think I will have the same issues with the bb .454s jumping crimp. I figured some here would like to know this info. I personally wouldn't buy HSM casull again. Just my opinion. that said I would only look at extremely heavily crimped .454s from now on. once I have my brass I will be applying the heaviest crimp I can on my loads. For bear defence I would hunt up the buffalo bore heavy .454 casull rounds. There crimp really is better and a lockup from a jumped bullet could really suck if it happens when you need it most. Happy fathers day

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    Your experience brings up an interesting question.

    What causes, and what alleviates Crimp Jumping?

    My hand cannon is a 44 Mag. and I've only owned it for a couple/three years, and I've had no crimp jumping, with it or with my 357.

    From what I've heard, the contributing factors are light gun, heavy bullets, heavy loads, and perhaps, even barrel length.

    I dunno if this is strictly true, but if it is, at least to some degree, these things could be taken into consideration, along with the amount of crimp and neck tension.

    For example,

    We choose our gun.

    Our bullet weight.

    The bullet weight.

    Barrel length.

    Again, I'm not very experienced, but I'm thinking if I had bullets jumping crimp, I would handload lighter bullets, at less velocity, or trade in my revolver for a heavier one, with a longer barrel. Possibly, just one of those approaches would solve the problem.

    I'd like to hear if I'm on the right track here, though.

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    One of Newtons laws of motion is the problem. Things at rest stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside source of energy. When you shoot a heavy loaded 454 in a handgun, the gun jumps to the rear rather briskly. The cases in the non fired chambers are jerked to the rear by their rim. The bullets in the non fired chambers want to stay where they were before another chamber discharged. The only thing moving the bullet and powder to the rear is the case friction and crimp. The faster the gun recoils, the more energy is required to accelerate the non fired bullets and powder to the rear. Speed of recoil on the gun is determined by several things such as gun weight, powder charge, bullet weight and so on. The faster the gun recoils and the heavier the bullet the more grip the case has to have on a bullet to get it moving to the rear with the gun. Simply put, a light gun with heavy bullets and heavy powder charges needs a very heavy crimp. Another point that is often overlooked is the size of the hands holding the gun and the strength of those hands.

  4. #4

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    Some additional thoughts:

    * cast bullets are much more prone to jump the crimp than jacketed bullets
    * cartridges left in the cylinder for repeated firings (rounds 4 and 5 when only the first 3 are fired prior to a reload) are VERY prone to move forward
    * repeated use of the same brass will often lead to jumped crimps as the brass loses some elasticity

    But heavy for caliber bullets in large capacity cartridges in a handgun are the main culprit as rbuck explained above.

    That's why a 4 die set is a must for revolver big bores.Not a seater and crimper die combined as in a 3 die set.

    Some manufacturers also add a small amount of cement-like material to their loading process.This CAN cause inconsistent bullet pull effects but does HELP to not allow bullet jump.

    Final note:how much OAL clearance do you have with the RB cylinder and some of these loads?If it is minimal, then even .002" of bullet jump can lock up rotation like right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7STW View Post
    Some additional thoughts:

    * cast bullets are much more prone to jump the crimp than jacketed bullets
    * cartridges left in the cylinder for repeated firings (rounds 4 and 5 when only the first 3 are fired prior to a reload) are VERY prone to move forward
    * repeated use of the same brass will often lead to jumped crimps as the brass loses some elasticity

    But heavy for caliber bullets in large capacity cartridges in a handgun are the main culprit as rbuck explained above.

    That's why a 4 die set is a must for revolver big bores.Not a seater and crimper die combined as in a 3 die set.

    Some manufacturers also add a small amount of cement-like material to their loading process.This CAN cause inconsistent bullet pull effects but does HELP to not allow bullet jump.

    Final note:how much OAL clearance do you have with the RB cylinder and some of these loads?If it is minimal, then even .002" of bullet jump can lock up rotation like right now.
    I absolutely agree that the crimping has to be it's own step. I've always had better luck with a roll crimp die than a taper crimp die.

    Also what Rbuck said may hurt but it's spot on. Don't take offense dvldg but a good firm grip that controls the recoil has a lot to do with it. Same principal is probably the number one reason why people have stove pipe jams with hard recoiling semi autos.

    My brother used to have all kinds of problems with both bullets jumping crimp and 45 ACPs jamming on him. I could shoot his guns with the same ammo and not have any issues. My bothers is an ox! He finished 2nd in his weight class at the national arm wrestling tournament and he could have broken my arm off and beat me to death with it. It was a matter of him controlling the gun rather than the gun controlling him. He has it figured out now and can shoot his 500 S&W as well as I can shoot a 357. It takes more effort to shoot accurately when you are strong arming your gun but he is proof that it can be done and with heavy recoiling guns mastering this is a must.

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    Member winibezold's Avatar
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    when i load for my 454 Raging Bull, i make sure to seat so that the roll crimp lands very neatly inside the crimp groove on the cast 335gr bullets.
    I use the lee roll crimp die and have tested the crimp by keeping one round in the last chamber for 4-5 groups and have yet to slip one loose. I think the RB my have a touch more jump prone-ness due to the fact that the porting keeps the gun flat and all the recoil is straight back, which may enhance the problem.

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    I haven't experienced any jump with my SRH Toklat with ammo from Corbon, DT, BB, HSM, and others. I would believe it to be a gun issue more so than the ammo.


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    I have had both Buffalo Bore 300 gr. loads and Winchester 250 grain loads both lock up the cylinder on my 7 1/2 inch Ruger Super Red Hawk 454. This usually happens sometime after the 4th fired shot. Rather disconcerting since I carry this revolver for bruin protection working in the woods.

    On a related note, any of you guys remember when Craig Medred was mauled on the Russian River a few decades ago? If I remember right, Mr. Medred got a shot off and then his Freedom Arms 454 "jammed". Could this be the result of a poor crimp, having the next round's bullet jump, and locking the rotation of the cylinder?

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    If there were one revolver I would trust more than any other, it would be a FA.My guess would be that is exactly what happened or possibly an extra heavy load that cratered the primer and hung up the cylinder on the recoil shield.

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    Thanks for the info guys. The bb heavy .454s are 360gr. I didn't think the kick was that hard but it was straight back and comfortable to me. I will pay more attention to my grip next time and see if thats an issue. As far as clearance i have over .050 thou clearance. At least actually. All good points but the crimp is definitely superior in the heavy bb .454 loadings. Of course 80+ rounds will definitely affect ones form I still had accuracy issues. The raging bull is one comfortable .454 to shoot though. I wish they made better sights however. Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
    I have had both Buffalo Bore 300 gr. loads and Winchester 250 grain loads both lock up the cylinder on my 7 1/2 inch Ruger Super Red Hawk 454. This usually happens sometime after the 4th fired shot. Rather disconcerting since I carry this revolver for bruin protection working in the woods.

    On a related note, any of you guys remember when Craig Medred was mauled on the Russian River a few decades ago? If I remember right, Mr. Medred got a shot off and then his Freedom Arms 454 "jammed". Could this be the result of a poor crimp, having the next round's bullet jump, and locking the rotation of the cylinder?
    It is my understanding that his gun jammed for just that reason.

    I don't know if he was using FLs or HLs.

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    Smitty:

    Obviously, none of us was a witness to the accident.And every firearm CAN experience a malfunction from ammo..it's the nature of the beast.

    But to infer blame on the revolver in question is, at best, unfair and at worse, probably misleading.

    Nobody has better QC on their products than Freedom Arms.But reliable functioning of any handgun depends in part on the ammo it is being fed.

    Just as cheap or crappy gas can cause ANY truck or car to die on the spot...through no fault of the truck or car manufacturer.

    Way too many shooters just assume that any load...whatever the source and specs...will always go BANG when the hammer drops.

    On occasion, this can lead to some very bad outcomes...as described above for Mr.Medred.

    Point being, when you are potentially betting your life on a firearm/shooting situation,you need to check out all the factors possible BEFORE the $**T hits the fan.

    Personally, I'd bet my life...and already have...that a FA 454 will function properly.With the right ammo and...the right person holding the Casull.

    7STW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
    I have had both Buffalo Bore 300 gr. loads and Winchester 250 grain loads both lock up the cylinder on my 7 1/2 inch Ruger Super Red Hawk 454. This usually happens sometime after the 4th fired shot. Rather disconcerting since I carry this revolver for bruin protection working in the woods.

    On a related note, any of you guys remember when Craig Medred was mauled on the Russian River a few decades ago? If I remember right, Mr. Medred got a shot off and then his Freedom Arms 454 "jammed". Could this be the result of a poor crimp, having the next round's bullet jump, and locking the rotation of the cylinder?
    I do remember Craig Medred's run in with a sow while on the Kenai moose hunting with his 454 - good thing his first and only shot down her throat dissuaded a continued attack. As I recall it took some time for him to free up the cylinder of his 454 due to a jumped/jammed bullet. The tooth marks on the barrel prob makes for an interesting conversation!
    "Actions speak louder than words - 'nough said"

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7STW View Post
    Smitty:

    Obviously, none of us was a witness to the accident.And every firearm CAN experience a malfunction from ammo..it's the nature of the beast.

    But to infer blame on the revolver in question is, at best, unfair and at worse, probably misleading.

    Nobody has better QC on their products than Freedom Arms.But reliable functioning of any handgun depends in part on the ammo it is being fed.

    Just as cheap or crappy gas can cause ANY truck or car to die on the spot...through no fault of the truck or car manufacturer.

    Way too many shooters just assume that any load...whatever the source and specs...will always go BANG when the hammer drops.

    On occasion, this can lead to some very bad outcomes...as described above for Mr.Medred.

    Point being, when you are potentially betting your life on a firearm/shooting situation,you need to check out all the factors possible BEFORE the $**T hits the fan.

    Personally, I'd bet my life...and already have...that a FA 454 will function properly.With the right ammo and...the right person holding the Casull.

    7STW
    Try and FOCUS, 7STW:

    I DIDN'T blame the gun.

    Libertine suggested that the problem might be bad crimp.

    I said it was my understanding, "that his gun jammed for just that reason." (bad crimp)

    I say that it was "my understanding" because I read in the paper about the incident later, and it was described how when bullets in the cylinder came forward, (jumping crimp) the revolver could jam. I took that to mean, that was what actually happened, to Medred.

    I've since learned that this problem can occur with any beeg bore high velocity revolver, and cartridge. I think the issue/problem came to the forefront when the 454 came into wide use.

    It is also my understanding that FA revolvers are very well made. They're certainly expensive.

    At a demo, I fired a FA 454, 2 shots. The recoil was tremendous, easily several times what I remembered from Ruger Super Blackhawk, in 44 Mag. (Too much for me, frankly, WAY too much. I can see how a 454 could jump crimp in ANY gun.

    FA is amazing, actually. IIRC, their first SA revolver was chambered in 22 LR. That's the first one I remember, anyway.

    BTW, don't "bet your life" on your reading comprehension.

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    FWIW, I had a round jump crimp in my FA Model 83 four years ago. It was a 325gr load that CorBon sold that they no longer sell. It caused the cylinder to lock up. I have not since had any problem with any other CorBon load, or any other of the many scores of loads I have shot from Buffalo Bore; Federal; Winchester; Hornady; and Magtech. Particularly, the 360gr BB WNHCFN shoots like a dream out of my FA at an average of 1,496 fps, which is well-above what they claim. The crimp-jump I experienced might be more of a problem with the FA than some other revolvers because the tolerances are so tight with that revolver, which is a cost/benefit of the gun. It possibly is the most amazing man-made machine I own. But it is so because it is very tightly designed. That being said, it functions flawlessly with all the hundreds of rounds I have shot through it except for that one round four years ago. I have, and would again, bet my life on it functioning with the 360gr BB HC loads every time you pull the trigger.

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    Smitty and Marine Hawk:

    My post was just to ensure that FA Casulls don't get a bad rep on this board...either directly or indirectly.And I have no connection to FA and no axe to grind with them other than they build (in my experience of over 45 years shooting handguns)the finest revolvers in the world.SBHs are plow horses by comparison.

    MH, no question that FA demands tight tolerances.Tight tolerances are required when you blast a heavy for caliber bullet out the barrel at 65,000 PSI.Doing this is like popping the clutch on a 500HP car than can lay rubber in all 4 gears.FA Casulls are for ADVANCED handgun shooters...not those that think a SBH 44 Mag is the "most powerful handgun in the world and it will blow your head clean off".

    Personally, other than doing bench work with FA 454, I've found the recoil to be more than acceptable.Especially with the factory smooth wood grips.Plinking in Wyoming on one trip, I could consistently stay on a 4'x4' rock at 1200 yards(lazer range finder measured) with a FA 454 and iron sights.Recoil was very moderate with a 2 handed grip and sitting position with a boulder for back support.

    No question Smitty...$2000+ for any firearm is expensive for most of us.But a Freedom Arms Casull is worth the dough if you want the best.

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    I'm still trying to master the recoil of my 44 Mag.

    Sometimes, I shoot well, and other times not.

    I just read something by Elmer Keith in the book, "Gun Notes", a reprint of his blurbs in G&A magazine, about how to deal with magnum handgun recoil, and will be trying out his advice very soon.

    Again, it seems to me that "Crimp Jump" could be addressed in ways, other than simply adding more crimp, which may not even be possible. I'm thinking, a smaller expander for more neck tension, or changing the load, with a lighter bullet, or lesser powder charge, different primers, different brass, ???

    And, as has already been mentioned, those who use FLs, finding more suitable ammunition.

    I agree, that reliability is of paramount importance for a handgun that is to defend against bears. Reportedly, they do work rather well for that purpose, too, for those who have learned to deal with the recoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7STW View Post
    Smitty and Marine Hawk:

    My post was just to ensure that FA Casulls don't get a bad rep on this board...either directly or indirectly.And I have no connection to FA and no axe to grind with them other than they build (in my experience of over 45 years shooting handguns)the finest revolvers in the world.SBHs are plow horses by comparison.

    MH, no question that FA demands tight tolerances.Tight tolerances are required when you blast a heavy for caliber bullet out the barrel at 65,000 PSI.Doing this is like popping the clutch on a 500HP car than can lay rubber in all 4 gears.FA Casulls are for ADVANCED handgun shooters...not those that think a SBH 44 Mag is the "most powerful handgun in the world and it will blow your head clean off".

    Personally, other than doing bench work with FA 454, I've found the recoil to be more than acceptable.Especially with the factory smooth wood grips.Plinking in Wyoming on one trip, I could consistently stay on a 4'x4' rock at 1200 yards(lazer range finder measured) with a FA 454 and iron sights.Recoil was very moderate with a 2 handed grip and sitting position with a boulder for back support.

    No question Smitty...$2000+ for any firearm is expensive for most of us.But a Freedom Arms Casull is worth the dough if you want the best.
    The "best" is certainly worth more money.

    I didn't mean to low-rate FA in any way. I see the difficulty stemming from the powerful cartridges.

    Smitty of the North
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