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Thread: Educational Fisheries

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    Default Educational Fisheries

    I said I would post a new thread on this topic.

    I went over to ADF&G to get the reports for the educational fisheries and was informed Dept. of Law has to approve the release. It seems that because names are in the report someone thought that is would be illegal to release the report. That is so bogus. We released names all the time in ADF&G. Commercial fisherman and guides to name two groups. We would not release phone numbers of addresses and I can accept ADF&G removing those from the report.


    I am suppose to hear by Tuesday if the reports will be released. I try not to hear black helicopters but sometimes that black object is the sky is not a raven. We will see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    I said I would post a new thread on this topic.

    I went over to ADF&G to get the reports for the educational fisheries and was informed Dept. of Law has to approve the release. It seems that because names are in the report someone thought that is would be illegal to release the report. That is so bogus. We released names all the time in ADF&G. Commercial fisherman and guides to name two groups. We would not release phone numbers of addresses and I can accept ADF&G removing those from the report.


    I am suppose to hear by Tuesday if the reports will be released. I try not to hear black helicopters but sometimes that black object is the sky is not a raven. We will see.
    Would be very sad if it takes an FOIA request to get er done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    I am suppose to hear by Tuesday if the reports will be released. I try not to hear black helicopters but sometimes that black object is the sky is not a raven. We will see.
    Nerka..... Welcome to the world the rest of us citizens deal with on a regular basis.
    Sorry, but I couldn't help but chuckle. Someday maybe these govt clowns will be made to know that THEY WORK FOR US! I often wonder what results could be had if twenty or so folks could band together for a few hrs, go down there and DEMAND service.
    Sheese, what has happened to this country???
    Your sarcasm is way, waaaayyyyyyyy more sarcastic than mine!

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    Just got the applications for the permits but not the annual reports. Will have to try and see if those are available which is what I asked for in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Just got the applications for the permits but not the annual reports. Will have to try and see if those are available which is what I asked for in the first place.
    Getting old. The annual report was attached. They are interesting in some of the comments in the reports -

    1. The salmon harvested were distributed to many people who didn't participate in the fishery.
    2. Many recipes were discussed
    3. We all look forward to next year's program and taste of that first salmon
    4.
    21 people participated in one fishery and they appear to be mostly adults. Students are now any age.
    5.
    One educational fishery took 5436 salmon (19 kings) in 2013.
    6. This opportunity has brought people together for purposes of weddings, funerals, potlucks, and the most important to keep the family unit strong by providing a gathering place that encourages sobriety and togetherness.
    7. It is our intent one day to move from an Educational Fishery to a Tribal fishery that is based on customary and traditional use and values that focus on family unit and their needs.
    8. We request that a permanent Educational fishery be issued
    9. The primary text is a tide book
    10.
    30 people participated in one fishery and it looks like they represented 13 or 14 families which had an allocation of 300 salmon
    11. There is no specific student profiling of any particular makeup. The students could be young, old, white, native,experienced or not, male or female.


    I could go on but in all the reports it appears that these participants are doing nothing more than what anyone would do with their family in sport fishing, commercial fishing, or personal use fishing. I did not see anything that could not be accomplished within the existing PU fisheries. The net fishery at Kasilof and dip net fisheries provide the same opportunities for sharing of resources and learning.

    Since none of these fisheries have any review except by the Commissioner and that appears weak at best I believe that the Board of Fish should review these and at a minimum add them to the management plans when conservation measures are needed. Right now they are not covered.

    Also, the special interest nature of these fisheries need to be closely examined. Otherwise from what I have read anyone can create one of these and use the language of these permits to justify the permit. For example, one could claim as some of these fisheries have claimed is that fish are shared, techniques for handling shared, and anyone of any age is a student. This is prime for abuse and not the original intent of the educational fisheries.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Personally I have mixed feelings on the educational fisheries. But overall I support them as they are now being run.
    Yes I have participated in these fisheries as my wife is a tribal member. My stepson goes to fish camp every summer and learns about the traditions and heritage of salmon fishing as well as the techniques to preserve fish for himself and his family.
    I think to truly understand them one needs to actively participate in these fisheries. To sit with the Elders and learn from them the history of the Kenai and what the fish mean to them. To see the joy in their face when they receive some fresh fish that they might otherwise not be able to harvest.
    It is nice that tribal elders can get their fish from this net without being overrun with the crowds and trash associated with the PU dipnet fisheries.
    The longer seasons allow them to spread out and not have to deal with all the fish the elders and other tribal members need in a short 20 day timespan.
    While I am sure some of the educational fisheries users are just involved for personal gain,my family is not. Elders come first and we have filleted hundreds if not thousands of fish for the Tribal elders and the tribal food bank.
    I like the fact that the tribe does not hand out cash in times of need but road kill moose and Salmon that were properly preserved so these people have food to eat and not cigarettes or alcohol(not that all tribal members would do so but some certainly would).
    Providing another resource not unlike the regular peninsula food bank.
    I know when the commercial fishermen are closed to fishing due to low numbers of kings the tribe will also voluntarily pull their net. At leat they have in the past.
    I guess my question is what harm does the Kenaitze educational fishery do? If there was a shortage of red salmon maybe I could see your point. But this fishery takes place on privately held tribal land and primarily catches reds salmon which are currently in abundance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Personally I have mixed feelings on the educational fisheries. But overall I support them as they are now being run.
    Yes I have participated in these fisheries as my wife is a tribal member. My stepson goes to fish camp every summer and learns about the traditions and heritage of salmon fishing as well as the techniques to preserve fish for himself and his family.
    I think to truly understand them one needs to actively participate in these fisheries. To sit with the Elders and learn from them the history of the Kenai and what the fish mean to them. To see the joy in their face when they receive some fresh fish that they might otherwise not be able to harvest.
    It is nice that tribal elders can get their fish from this net without being overrun with the crowds and trash associated with the PU dipnet fisheries.
    The longer seasons allow them to spread out and not have to deal with all the fish the elders and other tribal members need in a short 20 day timespan.
    While I am sure some of the educational fisheries users are just involved for personal gain,my family is not. Elders come first and we have filleted hundreds if not thousands of fish for the Tribal elders and the tribal food bank.
    I like the fact that the tribe does not hand out cash in times of need but road kill moose and Salmon that were properly preserved so these people have food to eat and not cigarettes or alcohol(not that all tribal members would do so but some certainly would).
    Providing another resource not unlike the regular peninsula food bank.
    I know when the commercial fishermen are closed to fishing due to low numbers of kings the tribe will also voluntarily pull their net. At leat they have in the past.
    I guess my question is what harm does the Kenaitze educational fishery do? If there was a shortage of red salmon maybe I could see your point. But this fishery takes place on privately held tribal land and primarily catches reds salmon which are currently in abundance.
    The issue for me is that the salmon resources are owned in common and therefore all Alaskans should be treated equally relative to access to the resources. Special interests groups getting special treatment is not the way to do this. While the tribe has rationale reasons for the educational fishery those reasons were rejected by the courts relative to subsistence. Using the educational fisheries to circumvent that finding is not good government in my opinion. The courts have ruled that fisheries are open to all Alaskans. So why are some educational fisheries only open to a special select group of people? These are the only fisheries in the State that are closed to other Alaskans. That is one issue.

    The second issue is that if they are going to operate then they should be in the management plans. This year the educational fishery nets are fishing when all other fisheries are closed because of chinook salmon. That makes them a priority fishery without any public input or legislation to give them that priority.

    So my issues are philosophical and mainly about fairness and process not the rationale for why a special interest group is justifying its fishery. As I pointed out every educational fishery has great justifications about sharing resource, sense of community, helping older people, cultural values, and education of young people. However, in practice every sport fisherman or commercial fisherman I know can make the same claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Personally I have mixed feelings on the educational fisheries. But overall I support them as they are now being run.
    Yes I have participated in these fisheries as my wife is a tribal member. My stepson goes to fish camp every summer and learns about the traditions and heritage of salmon fishing as well as the techniques to preserve fish for himself and his family.
    I think to truly understand them one needs to actively participate in these fisheries. To sit with the Elders and learn from them the history of the Kenai and what the fish mean to them. To see the joy in their face when they receive some fresh fish that they might otherwise not be able to harvest.
    It is nice that tribal elders can get their fish from this net without being overrun with the crowds and trash associated with the PU dipnet fisheries.
    The longer seasons allow them to spread out and not have to deal with all the fish the elders and other tribal members need in a short 20 day timespan.
    While I am sure some of the educational fisheries users are just involved for personal gain,my family is not. Elders come first and we have filleted hundreds if not thousands of fish for the Tribal elders and the tribal food bank.
    I like the fact that the tribe does not hand out cash in times of need but road kill moose and Salmon that were properly preserved so these people have food to eat and not cigarettes or alcohol(not that all tribal members would do so but some certainly would).
    Providing another resource not unlike the regular peninsula food bank.
    I know when the commercial fishermen are closed to fishing due to low numbers of kings the tribe will also voluntarily pull their net. At leat they have in the past.
    I guess my question is what harm does the Kenaitze educational fishery do? If there was a shortage of red salmon maybe I could see your point. But this fishery takes place on privately held tribal land and primarily catches reds salmon which are currently in abundance.
    Totally get that and respect your view KC, but I think that as Nerka stated, this is about Alaskans having equal access to the resource. In this educational fishery, elders and tribal members get preference - I have never asked to participate and may be welcomed with open arms - however both you and the Kenaitze website state that tribal members and elders get preference. In my mind the word "tribe" is synonymous with the word "race". My name would be put at the bottom of the stack due to my ethnicity (similar to how non-native owned corporations are treated in our state, and how white people are treated when applying to work at native-owned corporations). Even though my toe-headed kids are 4th generation Alaskans, KP residents, and fishermen, they would not have the same educational or employment opportunity as someone with native blood despite the fact that the traditions of their elders may be similar (or not, since the child of two nonresidents could be considered eligible so long as he/she had something like 1/4 AK native if I'm not mistaken). That is discrimination based on race and it is WRONG. Is there a residency requirement for this educational fishery?

    I grew up subsistence fishing with my elders too, have private land on the inlet, and would love to pass that tradition on to the young ones in my family. Perhaps I should start an educational fishery for my 'tribe'. We all know that's a pipe dream, but it really should be no different.

    Wait, I do have an educational fishery. It's a setnet operation where I teach my kids how to pick fish and work hard. Then we sell the fish for a reasonable price and I spend that money in the local economy. But the chairman of the BOF doesn't tolerate any discussion of the "f" word - "family" at his meetings. And he doesn't call our small operation an educational fishery - it's a "family dynasty" and an "entry-level fishery". What a joke.

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    When I lived in Bristol Bay, these types of things happened all the time, BUT, since there were gobs of fish and tons of space (public and native owned) to conduct such things, we just called it "life". Now, since roadside Alaska now has gobs of people wanting a crack at those gobs of fish, this is now regulated and it has become the norm for seasons, and limits of harvest and methods and means.

    Within limits, and ideally as part of the management plan, I support these educational fisheries for many of the reasons KC does. It can be taken too far, but this seems a simple and straight forward opportunity to encourage some continuance of native culture and tradition of fish camp and sharing and etc. I see no biological concern, just some sporties and commercialies aghast at another hand in the cookie jar.

    I always enjoyed boating past the fish camps on the lower Nushagak and seeing all the fish put up and the folks staying out there for weeks splitting fish and having the whole family there. Certainly in the case of sockeye, there's plenty to go around. Yes, the world has changed in the past 50 years but who's to say the only people with the right that to catch stuff need to have sport rods, dipnets, and limited entry permits. Anyone who has logged substantial time in the bush knows the value of these sorts of activities. And, if you talk real nice to folks in fish camp, you will likely get some strips straight from the smokehouse while they wait for your approving smile upon tasting them.

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    Catch It, I am not a commercial fisherman and do not sport fish anymore due to health issues. So in reality getting fish from an educational fishery would be to my advantage. Right now a small group of us could come together, outline an educational fishery similar to what the North Beach fishery of Tim O'Brian is and have gill net caught salmon when others in a similar situation would not be able to do it. That is the rub.

    I talked to staff today and they said given the history of these fisheries it would be impossible to say no to anyone who fills out the paperwork. So the Board of Fiish needs to be involved and these fisheries put into management plans. They need to be legal.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Nerka this is where my mixed feelings come in.
    I do agree with you on the racial and fairness aspects.
    It isn't right to treat people differently based on race or skin color.
    But then again the federal government does it all the time anyway (affirmative action hiring practices).
    My wife has a SHARC card for subsistence halibut. Is it fair that she has one yet I am not allowed one?
    The feds say yes. My guess is the state of AK would say no.
    I'm glad people have lived here for 3 or 4 generations.
    But the federal government still sees a difference between those people and Alaska Natives.
    Life is seldom if ever fair.
    I guess what irks me most is when people (not you in particular)say the educational net is neither educational nor traditional and that is blatently false.


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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    I don't know about all the educational fisheries but for the KIT nets on the Kenai south beach for this year you do have to be an Alaskan resident and a tribal member to sign up for the net. You may only sign up once and I believe you must sign up in the month you are wanting to have your day at the net.
    You are allowed the same limits as you would have in the PU fisheries and any excess fish goes into the tribal food bank.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Nerka this is where my mixed feelings come in.
    I do agree with you on the racial and fairness aspects.
    It isn't right to treat people differently based on race or skin color.
    But then again the federal government does it all the time anyway (affirmative action hiring practices).
    My wife has a SHARC card for subsistence halibut. Is it fair that she has one yet I am not allowed one?
    The feds say yes. My guess is the state of AK would say no.
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    Just FYI, you don't have to be native to have a SHARC card. If you live in a rural town with a history of subsistence, you can get a card even If you're white, or any other race. I and many people in this town have them. But I guess since you are not in qualifying town, you must have to be native to have a card up there; which I agree is BS. Should be all or none.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anythingalaska View Post
    Just FYI, you don't have to be native to have a SHARC card. If you live in a rural town with a history of subsistence, you can get a card even If you're white, or any other race. I and many people in this town have them. But I guess since you are not in qualifying town, you must have to be native to have a card up there; which I agree is BS. Should be all or none.
    Exactly. We do not qualify due to our location of residence but my wife and stepson do because they are native.
    I don't ever see them letting non natives have cards in non rural areas of southcentral AK as there are too many people and not enough fish.
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    I hope we do not turn this into a discussion of race and the conflict and hurt that would cause. There are a number of educational fisheries that are not associated with a tribe.

    Also, as I stated earlier all have some educational and cultural components that make them look good on paper. That is not the issue for me. What is the issue is how many, do we need tighter criteria and performance standards, should they be in the management plans, and who checks the Commissioner to make sure they are not abused/

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    You almost can't discuss this kind of stuff or subsistence in general without the race card coming out. Sad but true.
    So what and where are these other educational fisheries?
    Just curious as I was unaware there were others. Granted I haven't even looked or googled anything but it would help in the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    You almost can't discuss this kind of stuff or subsistence in general without the race card coming out. Sad but true.
    So what and where are these other educational fisheries?
    Just curious as I was unaware there were others. Granted I haven't even looked or googled anything but it would help in the discussion.

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    That's because subsistence rights are by nature discriminatory. Where you live, how long you've lived there, if you've traditionally depended on those resources for subsistence or not, etc... all perfectly acceptable - I just don't think that skin color should be a factor. I say this as a soulless ginger. Content of character, right Bfish?

    Everyone is right though - enough of that kind of talk. I hope the educational fisheries are doing well, and think it's great that they are carrying on tradition. I hope to be able to do the same this year. If not, I hope my boys are welcome at the local educational net.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    You almost can't discuss this kind of stuff or subsistence in general without the race card coming out. Sad but true.
    So what and where are these other educational fisheries?
    Just curious as I was unaware there were others. Granted I haven't even looked or googled anything but it would help in the discussion.

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    OK. I am going to list them all from the ADF&G annual management report.
    Kentize Tribe, Ninilchiik Tribal Council, Ninilchik Native Descendants, Ninilchik Emergency Services, Homer VFW, Anchor Poiint VFW, Kasilof Historical Society, South Central Foundation, Knik Tribal Council, Big Lake Cultural Outreach, Eklutna Village, Tyonek Village, Territorial Homestead Lodge.

    So there is a mix and that should be kept in mind in commenting on these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    OK. I am going to list them all from the ADF&G annual management report.
    Kentize Tribe, Ninilchiik Tribal Council, Ninilchik Native Descendants, Ninilchik Emergency Services, Homer VFW, Anchor Poiint VFW, Kasilof Historical Society, South Central Foundation, Knik Tribal Council, Big Lake Cultural Outreach, Eklutna Village, Tyonek Village, Territorial Homestead Lodge.

    So there is a mix and that should be kept in mind in commenting on these.
    Thanks for the list Nerka, interesting mix.

    I was looking for the qualifications to get an educational permit, I thought you had posted them or a link to the qualifications. Are they in one of the threads and I just can't find them or do you have a link? thanks.

    It is particularly interesting now that the PU set nets have been pulled and the marine fishery is closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Thanks for the list Nerka, interesting mix.

    I was looking for the qualifications to get an educational permit, I thought you had posted them or a link to the qualifications. Are they in one of the threads and I just can't find them or do you have a link? thanks.

    It is particularly interesting now that the PU set nets have been pulled and the marine fishery is closed.
    They were posted on another thread. I will look for the link or if anyone knows please repost.

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