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Thread: Fall Black Bear Hunt (gonna happen but of course I still have questions)

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    Default Fall Black Bear Hunt (gonna happen but of course I still have questions)

    Well Im in year five of trying to make this happen and now I am committed to September 2015 (I even have the kitchen pass). I got a lot of good info from you guys on here which has helped me with my planning. However one issue is still undecided. I have decided to charter a flight out in the Kenai NWR area instead of hunting the highway. The flight service I am looking at using has been very helpful however they offer an "unguided" hunt option in which they drop you in a pre-scouted area or I could just do the straight charter to wherever I tell them to take me. Flight time is charged with a one hour minimum. Any opinions on this would be more than appreciated.

    Good Huntin
    TH

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    Member cjustinm's Avatar
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    unless you have time to scout or reliable info then i would take the option to let them take you to a pre scouted area unless you know something they dont. a minimum rate is common since it wouldnt be of much benifit to the pilot to fire up the plane for a 10 min ride and pro rate it. sounds like you've got a good plan to me.

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    What do they mean by "pre-scouted"? Are they also licensed as a registered guide or are they just an air taxi/transporter?

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    Member JuliW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wags View Post
    What do they mean by "pre-scouted"? Are they also licensed as a registered guide or are they just an air taxi/transporter?

    this question also came to my mind...Charter operators and NOT guides...either they are using a bogus sales pitch to get you to book, or they don't know the law.
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    maybe i dont know the law either but shouldnt transporters have a pretty good idea where game is at?? if not wouldn't it just be a shot in the dark? i have no clue about the outfit this guy is talking about but i know all the caribou transporters up here generally have a good idea where the herds are at and where to put people if not there wouldnt be a ton of repeat customers. maybe the OP is saying they'll put him where they would expect to see bears and they know some are around.

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    Where have you guys been? Charter Operators have been offering fly-out non guided hunts for years. Naturally its in their best interest for their hunters they transport to be successful. Good luck on your hunt Tex. Great time of year to be on the Kenai.

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    Member JuliW's Avatar
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    drop offs are fine...to my knowledge locating animals for drop offs is not..but maybe that law has changed or I misunderstood it. Which is entirely possible. LOL
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    I'm no expert but it seems I recall in my reading that they transporters are not allowed to offer any advise on where to find animals. It seems a grey area if you say "take me to somewhere I can shoot a bear" and they fly you out and drop you off. I think they've always operated that way and it seems to fly, if you will...


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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    I'm with Juli on this one; any operator who is offering to take you to a "pre-scouted area" is raising some legitimate questions here. And I would add that even if they are a registered guide for the area, aerial scouting is strictly verboten for guides.

    (d) Field craft standards. All classes of guides shall
    (8) avoid using an aircraft in any manner to spot big game for the purpose of taking a specific animal...
    In fairness to the quote, there are exceptions, but I don't believe they apply in this case.

    I don't want to make more of this than it is, and I suspect there's more to the story here. BUT... if the air charter is offering to scout an area from the air, I would not touch them with a ten-foot pole. Do your own scouting, by conducting proper research! We have put a ton of effort into providing you with detailed instructions on how to do this. The information is available, you just have to do the work yourself. I fear that too many of us have asked air charter operators to play amateur game biologist by us asking them to take us to a good place for (fill in your species of choice). A better request would be to ask them how much it costs to go to (fill in the location you arrived at through proper research). Keeps it simpler for them, puts your success or failure in your hands (where it belongs), and avoids all these legal entanglements.

    If you don't know where to begin the research process, you can start AT THIS LINK to the main page of our hunt planning section, or you can hire a commercial hunt planner, who will do this together with you. Yes, it's a ton of work, but it's tons of fun too, and I believe you get much better results.

    Not beating you up here, by the way. You probably didn't know most of this.

    Best of luck!

    -Mike
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    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
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    Hey tex Hunter your inbox is full

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliW View Post
    this question also came to my mind...Charter operators and NOT guides...either they are using a bogus sales pitch to get you to book, or they don't know the law.
    Sorry, air charters "can" be owned and operated by registered guides as well.......
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Eehhhh not completely accurate.
    I agree with your points.....but "aerial scouting strictly forboten" is not accurate. In the statute you quoted even, it says "specific animal". IE find a moose in a marsh; camp on it and kill in morn. NOT flying an area counting what u have in the pre-season. (Guide)
    If you fly someone in and fly the area a bit that's very different. Do the clients need to be blindfolded if you circle the strip?

    There's some amount of "gray area". I won't argue with you it's wrong but not illegal to my knowledge. Surely not via the statute posted. If I was at home computer I'd look it up, but it says transporter can't "assist in take" or something of sort which can be construed to the never ending aerial scouting debate.

    Respectfully,
    KA

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    I'm with Juli on this one; any operator who is offering to take you to a "pre-scouted area" is raising some legitimate questions here. And I would add that even if they are a registered guide for the area, aerial scouting is strictly verboten for guides.


    In fairness to the quote, there are exceptions, but I don't believe they apply in this case.

    I don't want to make more of this than it is, and I suspect there's more to the story here. BUT... if the air charter is offering to scout an area from the air, I would not touch them with a ten-foot pole. Do your own scouting, by conducting proper research! We have put a ton of effort into providing you with detailed instructions on how to do this. The information is available, you just have to do the work yourself. I fear that too many of us have asked air charter operators to play amateur game biologist by us asking them to take us to a good place for (fill in your species of choice). A better request would be to ask them how much it costs to go to (fill in the location you arrived at through proper research). Keeps it simpler for them, puts your success or failure in your hands (where it belongs), and avoids all these legal entanglements.

    If you don't know where to begin the research process, you can start AT THIS LINK to the main page of our hunt planning section, or you can hire a commercial hunt planner, who will do this together with you. Yes, it's a ton of work, but it's tons of fun too, and I believe you get much better results.

    Not beating you up here, by the way. You probably didn't know most of this.

    Best of luck!

    -Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4merguide View Post
    Sorry, air charters "can" be owned and operated by registered guides as well.......
    Surely
    And what law specifically "don't they know"
    I mean looking at the OP, I don't see that but maybe I missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by limon32 View Post
    I'm no expert but it seems I recall in my reading that they transporters are not allowed to offer any advise on where to find animals.


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    so if a guy shows up in kotz, hasnt scouted, hasnt done any research, and doesnt know any location to get a caribou the transporter cant tell him or put him where they are going to be? if thats the case then almost all transported hunts up here are illegal because having joe from the lower 48 walk in and point to a random spot on a map to be dropped off to caribou hunt is going to have little if any chance to shoot anything. sorry to hijack but this all seems a little goofy to me. i guess like you said plenty of grey area to work with.

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    I know of an ethical boat transporter who will not even point out a bear on the beach, he leaves it up to the hunters to do the spotting/hunting.
    As far as un-knowledgeable hunters who show up in Kotz without a clue as to where they want to go; they deserve "to have little if any chance to shoot anything". If you don't want to take the time and effort to do your homework then you should hire a Guide.
    Air transporters are taxis. Think about it this way; you wouldn't get a cab at the airport and just say to the driver "take me somewhere interesting". You do the research regarding what sights you want to see, otherwise you hire a tour Guide.
    Many transporters are walking a very fine line between guiding and transporting, and the do get pinched on occasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wags View Post
    I know of an ethical boat transporter who will not even point out a bear on the beach, he leaves it up to the hunters to do the spotting/hunting.
    As far as un-knowledgeable hunters who show up in Kotz without a clue as to where they want to go; they deserve "to have little if any chance to shoot anything". If you don't want to take the time and effort to do your homework then you should hire a Guide.
    Air transporters are taxis. Think about it this way; you wouldn't get a cab at the airport and just say to the driver "take me somewhere interesting". You do the research regarding what sights you want to see, otherwise you hire a tour Guide.
    Many transporters are walking a very fine line between guiding and transporting, and the do get pinched on occasion.
    I agree! Well stated analogy.
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    transporters can not take you to game, they can only offer transportation services. They can not recommend locations either. They can only tell you a safer location to drop you off if you pick an area they cant land a plane or boat. They are strictly in the business of transportation and or lodging. A guide which is registered or master guide is the only one you can pay to drop you off in a specific location of their choosing that they know has game, not a standard transporter. He technically shouldn't be choosing your location of drop off. A transporter will know where game is typically located due to experience in the area and because he is flying the area on the regular for his business, but he shouldn't be telling you where he's taking you. Nor can he provide you with any equipment other than transportation or lodging.

    AS 08.54.650. Transporter License.

    (a) A person is entitled to a transporter license if the person

    (1) applies for a transporter license on a form provided by the department; and

    (2) pays the license application fee and the license fee.

    (b) A transporter may provide transportation services and accommodations to big game hunters in the field at a permanent lodge, house, or cabin owned by the transporter or on a boat with permanent living quarters located on salt water. A transporter may not provide big game hunting services without holding the appropriate license.

    (c) A transporter shall provide an annual activity report on a form provided by the department. An activity report must contain all information required by the board by regulation.

    (8) "guide" means to provide, for compensation or with the intent or with an agreement to receive compensation, services, equipment, or facilities to a big game hunter in the field by a person who accompanies or is present with the big game hunter in the field either personally or through an assistant; in this paragraph, "services" includes

    (A) contracting to guide or outfit big game hunts;

    (B) stalking, pursuing, tracking, killing, or attempting to kill big game;

    (C) packing, preparing, salvaging, or caring for meat, except that which is required to properly and safely load the meat on the mode of transportation being used by a transporter;

    (D) field preparation of trophies, including skinning and caping;

    (E) selling, leasing, or renting goods when the transaction occurs in the field;

    (F) using guiding or outfitting equipment, including spotting scopes and firearms, for the benefit of a hunter; and

    (G) providing camping or hunting equipment or supplies that are already located in the field;

    (9) "outfit" means to provide, for compensation or with the intent to receive compensation, services, supplies, or facilities to a big game hunter in the field, by a person who neither accompanies nor is present with the big game hunter in the field either personally or by an assistant;

    (10) "transportation services" means the carriage for compensation of big game hunters, their equipment, or big game animals harvested by hunters to, from, or in the field; "transportation services" does not include the carriage by aircraft of big game hunters, their equipment, or big game animals harvested by hunters
    Take a youngster out when you go, it will change his/her life forever!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by steeliekingfisher View Post
    transporters can not take you to game, they can only offer transportation services. They can not recommend locations either. They can only tell you a safer location to drop you off if you pick an area they cant land a plane or boat. They are strictly in the business of transportation and or lodging.

    AS 08.54.650. Transporter License.

    (a) A person is entitled to a transporter license if the person

    (1) applies for a transporter license on a form provided by the department; and

    (2) pays the license application fee and the license fee.

    (b) A transporter may provide transportation services and accommodations to big game hunters in the field at a permanent lodge, house, or cabin owned by the transporter or on a boat with permanent living quarters located on salt water. A transporter may not provide big game hunting services without holding the appropriate license.

    (c) A transporter shall provide an annual activity report on a form provided by the department. An activity report must contain all information required by the board by regulation.

    (8) "guide" means to provide, for compensation or with the intent or with an agreement to receive compensation, services, equipment, or facilities to a big game hunter in the field by a person who accompanies or is present with the big game hunter in the field either personally or through an assistant; in this paragraph, "services" includes

    (A) contracting to guide or outfit big game hunts;

    (B) stalking, pursuing, tracking, killing, or attempting to kill big game;

    (C) packing, preparing, salvaging, or caring for meat, except that which is required to properly and safely load the meat on the mode of transportation being used by a transporter;

    (D) field preparation of trophies, including skinning and caping;

    (E) selling, leasing, or renting goods when the transaction occurs in the field;

    (F) using guiding or outfitting equipment, including spotting scopes and firearms, for the benefit of a hunter; and

    (G) providing camping or hunting equipment or supplies that are already located in the field;

    (9) "outfit" means to provide, for compensation or with the intent to receive compensation, services, supplies, or facilities to a big game hunter in the field, by a person who neither accompanies nor is present with the big game hunter in the field either personally or by an assistant;

    (10) "transportation services" means the carriage for compensation of big game hunters, their equipment, or big game animals harvested by hunters to, from, or in the field; "transportation services" does not include the carriage by aircraft of big game hunters, their equipment, or big game animals harvested by hunters
    Steelie,
    Where does the posted statute say what you claim? Where does it say what JuliW and Wags claims it says? I'm just trying to read a regulation for what it is. What does #10 mean to you? What if his air taxi isn't a transporter?

    So all you 500 guys flying into the brooks Aug 8 already knew the exact spot you were getting dropped before you called the air taxi? Impressive.

    This is the second time in one thread guys copy regs that debunk their statements. I don't disagree with the point in general, but an opinion is not a fact. Even if you are old.


    TEX HUNTER- If they tell you they see more bears in one spot than the other, I'd go with that man. They don't have to close their eyes when they fly over the other 364 days a year. Take your advice from here for what it is…..
    If the air taxi does something wrong the feds/state will be parked next to their colon. If you really want to learn something, actually READ the two AS that are posted in this thread.

  19. #19
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    Eehhhh not completely accurate.
    I agree with your points.....but "aerial scouting strictly forboten" is not accurate. In the statute you quoted even, it says "specific animal". IE find a moose in a marsh; camp on it and kill in morn. NOT flying an area counting what u have in the pre-season. (Guide)
    If you fly someone in and fly the area a bit that's very different. Do the clients need to be blindfolded if you circle the strip?

    There's some amount of "gray area". I won't argue with you it's wrong but not illegal to my knowledge. Surely not via the statute posted. If I was at home computer I'd look it up, but it says transporter can't "assist in take" or something of sort which can be construed to the never ending aerial scouting debate.

    Respectfully,
    KA
    I think the issue is "intent". Clearly folks are going to look out the window on the inbound flight. But it's flights taken specifically for the purpose of aerial scouting that I'm talking about. Enforceable? Probably not. There's a thousand ways around that for those determined to do that. It's a shame, really, that we have a crop of hunters (and guides) who are willing to gloss this over in favor of higher success rates. What's next? Helicopters? There's a YouTube video circulating out there where a very well-known guide service is touting their success in taking "a particular animal", a large bull moose in exactly this way out on the Alaska Peninsula. When we start getting into the technical minutiae instead of looking at the intent of the law or (better yet) standards of conduct that hold to higher principles than legal minimums, well, that's when we start justifying all sorts of things.

    Playing Devil's advocate, though, if an air service is offering to take hunters into areas they have "pre scouted" from the air, and in scouting they discover a monster 8' black bear, would they be violating the law in telling hunters about that? And if the hunters, on hearing that information, elected to hunt that area and actually harvested an eight-footer in there, would they be breaking the law? After all, we really don't know that the particular eight-footer they killed was the same bear spotted from the air (though eight-foot black bears are as rare as hen's teeth). Foes the same hold true for big sheep or moose similarly spotted? For those interested in walking as close to the line as possible, it gets messy and you sometimes end up in court.

    Though you are probably correct in terms of a strict legal interpretation of the standards I quoted, I prefer (and consistently advocate) the use of aircraft for transportation only, with the exception of scouting for river hazards on float hunts, for reasons of personal safety.

    Just my .02.

    Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    I think the issue is "intent". Clearly folks are going to look out the window on the inbound flight. But it's flights taken specifically for the purpose of aerial scouting that I'm talking about. Enforceable? Probably not. There's a thousand ways around that for those determined to do that. It's a shame, really, that we have a crop of hunters (and guides) who are willing to gloss this over in favor of higher success rates. What's next? Helicopters? There's a YouTube video circulating out there where a very well-known guide service is touting their success in taking "a particular animal", a large bull moose in exactly this way out on the Alaska Peninsula. When we start getting into the technical minutiae instead of looking at the intent of the law or (better yet) standards of conduct that hold to higher principles than legal minimums, well, that's when we start justifying all sorts of things.

    Playing Devil's advocate, though, if an air service is offering to take hunters into areas they have "pre scouted" from the air, and in scouting they discover a monster 8' black bear, would they be violating the law in telling hunters about that? And if the hunters, on hearing that information, elected to hunt that area and actually harvested an eight-footer in there, would they be breaking the law? After all, we really don't know that the particular eight-footer they killed was the same bear spotted from the air (though eight-foot black bears are as rare as hen's teeth). Foes the same hold true for big sheep or moose similarly spotted? For those interested in walking as close to the line as possible, it gets messy and you sometimes end up in court.

    Though you are probably correct in terms of a strict legal interpretation of the standards I quoted, I prefer (and consistently advocate) the use of aircraft for transportation only, with the exception of scouting for river hazards on float hunts, for reasons of personal safety.

    Just my .02.

    Mike
    OOOHHHH so when you say "aerial scouting is strictly verboten for guides" you were talking intent and not strict legal interpretation? I somehow misunderstood.

    You along with several others said his chosen air taxi and/or guide was breaking the law. (You even posted an incorrectly referenced statute.) I called you on it because you guys are INCORRECT. Now the discussion is about "intent, fair chase, etc"? I never once said it was ethical, fair chase or otherwise.

    I stand by my original statement to you: ""I agree with your points.....but "aerial scouting strictly forboten" is not accurate.""


    Situation: YOU and YOUR kid are coming to do a caribou hunt. We agree on a spot in March. Sept comes and the caribou are 100 miles away. You want me to put you in the original spot because you: "prefer (and consistently advocate) the use of aircraft for transportation only, with the exception of scouting for river hazards on float hunts, for reasons of personal safety."? OR tell you. Cause you just said…...

    I'm done with this discussion. You guys were wrong to pile on the guy and wrong in your assertions.



    Tex hunter- if you need any further help, you can pm me.

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