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Thread: A sad situation

  1. #1

    Default A sad situation

    I know I'm going to get some flak for this but:
    I have come to the conclusion that the insane shortage is due to hoarding by shooters, plain and simple. It became pretty obvious after the Walmart and Cabela's "raids." What makes it sad is that our shooting brethren seem to have no regard for letting someone else have a chance to keep a reasonable reserve of .22 shells on hand for normal usage. I read a forum where a guy was boasting that he had been able to buy many thousands of rounds with the help of friends, even though he had a large supply already. I talked to a guy at Three Bears in the Valley who told me he did the same, including having a friend who doesn't even have a .22 rifle or pistol, and he has a really big supply already. Then there are those who are doing it to sell at ridiculous elevated prices online and at the shows. I won't comment on how I feel about that, thank you very much. I just think it would be considerate, and yes, a little more ethical to purchase a decent supply but to let others have a chance to do the same. I have a few thousand that I have gathered over time and it will be good for a while.
    I know there will come a time when all bets are off, and someone having a vast reserve of ammo will have to defend what they have, from normally decent folks who are desperate. God Bless the USA.

  2. #2

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    I had an interesting experience that ought to put a grin on your face. I had a bunch of ammo accumulated over the years, some of it dating back as much as 10 years, but most of it around 5 years old. Half a dozen brands.

    My young nephew came to visit, and he loves to shoot but doesn't get much chance at home. So it seemed only reasonable for a favorite uncle to get the kid out shooting and let him shoot to his heart's content.

    Funny thing was though, you wouldn't believe the number of misfires in even 5-year old 22 ammo, much less in the 10-year old stuff. And it had been stored the whole time indoors at constant heat. Pretty shocking, I can tell you.

    I get to laughing every time I think about the hoarders sitting on their treasure. Ain't gonna be worth poot to anyone when it starts FTF as it gets older, and their rep is going into the toilet for scalping bum ammo. Serves them right in my book!

  3. #3

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    Exactly what I have said...I just hear of a guy who rarely shoots but has hoarded up over 10,000 rounds of .22 RF. Get a clue, it's your dumb butts who are causing the shortage..Then some are screwing their own brother gun owners and outdoorsman by shafting them by selling them for double on the inter-net. Your worse then a liberal IMO..your one who pretends to be a gun owners friend, instead your our worst enemy. A Trojan horse.

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    I don't disagree with what you post. I do however, have a different spin if you will. I'm not a hoarder. Well at least I don't think I am. But I've been called a hoarder by others because I do have what some people call a big stash. I personally would call it woefully inadequate. Problem is, I shoot a lot. If I take my family to the range and shoot (which we do pretty much every week in the summer and once a month in winter) we all shoot the .22's. We burn through 500+ rounds in a matter of an hour and a half. I generally shoot over a hundred rounds alone without even a second thought. Just shot 200+ with my son on Sat. So for me and my family, a "stash" of even 10k rounds of .22 would barely be a year of shooting. I'm not saying how much I have because I hate doing that on the internet. But let's say at least for me, I don't consider it a "hoard" cause I do plan to shoot it. But I have had to taper back a bit since I can't just replace it when I need to. SO, when Wal-Mart had the sale, yes, I did what I could to buy every single box I could could eek out. But again, I'm not gonna bury it in a hole and rely on it for the zombie attack. I just know now that I can let my kids shoot for a year more and not have to worry about if I'm gonna find .22 again. And if more comes out, I'll probably buy more to replace what we shoot now and keep a buffer. Rotate out the old with the new as we go.

    Aside from that, I do agree and I hope those scalpers get stuck with a hoard of .22 they can't sell. But that's just my vengeful side talking.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    I had an interesting experience that ought to put a grin on your face. I had a bunch of ammo accumulated over the years, some of it dating back as much as 10 years, but most of it around 5 years old. Half a dozen brands.

    My young nephew came to visit, and he loves to shoot but doesn't get much chance at home. So it seemed only reasonable for a favorite uncle to get the kid out shooting and let him shoot to his heart's content.

    Funny thing was though, you wouldn't believe the number of misfires in even 5-year old 22 ammo, much less in the 10-year old stuff. And it had been stored the whole time indoors at constant heat. Pretty shocking, I can tell you.

    I get to laughing every time I think about the hoarders sitting on their treasure. Ain't gonna be worth poot to anyone when it starts FTF as it gets older, and their rep is going into the toilet for scalping bum ammo. Serves them right in my book!

    BB.... Was that ammo Remington green and yellow boxed ammo? Myself and others have experienced many mis fires w that ammo. Just curious.
    Your sarcasm is way, waaaayyyyyyyy more sarcastic than mine!

  6. #6

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    If you're going to shoot the ammo, then IMHO, that isn't hoarding. Hoarding, to me, means having ammo you don't intend to use in a reasonable amount if time, but just want to have, just in case of, uh, something. I saw it happen with powder and primers in the past several years. I honestly know a guy who has about 80 pounds of powder when he only shoots 3 or 4 cartridges. Oh, well. . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by cod View Post
    BB.... Was that ammo Remington green and yellow boxed ammo? Myself and others have experienced many mis fires w that ammo. Just curious.
    I've had the same experience with that stuff. I wouldn't buy it now if it was $10 a brick. Way too many mis fires.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by cod View Post
    BB.... Was that ammo Remington green and yellow boxed ammo? Myself and others have experienced many mis fires w that ammo. Just curious.
    There were various varieties of Remington, CCI, Winchester and Federal. Had a few boxes of Eley, and those were just fine. Had some ancient RWS, and those were just fine. But the big 4 from the US were all failing to a greater or lesser degree. Never got through a box without at last one FTF. And that was through 5 different guns, both rifles and handguns, so it wasn't a case of weak springs or anything. Just a lot more FTF that I've experienced decades back. Dunno what's up with the "newer" ammo from the last decade or so, but it's not cut out for long term storage. Just wait till all the hoarders start trying to dump theirs. I won't give them 10 cents on the dollar.

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    Funny, if you don't have something when supply is thin your called stupid for not being prepared, now that some folks have a supply and supplies are limited, some folks chastise them for hoarding?


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    The ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER
    OLD VERSION
    The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up
    supplies and Ammo for the future.
    The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

    Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed and has plenty of Ammo.
    The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
    MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!

    MODERN VERSION
    The ant works hard in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house
    and laying up supplies and Ammo for the future.
    The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

    Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be
    allowed to be warm and well fed and plenty of ammo while he is cold and starving..

    CBS, NBC, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant
    in his warm comfortable home with a table filled with food and going hunting and shooting regular. America is stunned by the sharp contrast.
    How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

    Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing,
    'It's Not Easy Being Green ...'

    Occupy The Anthill and Ammo less stages a demonstration in front of the ant's
    house where the news stations film the SEIU group singing, We shall overcome.
    Then Rev Al Sharpton's assistant has the group kneel down to pray for the grasshopper while he ****s
    the ants. The Reverend Al can not attend as he has contractual commitments to appear on his MSNBC
    show for which he is paid over two million dollars a year to complain that rich people do not care.

    President Obama condemns the ant and blames President Bush 43, President Bush 41, President Reagan,
    Christopher Columbus, and the Pope for the grasshopper's plight….

    Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview on The View that the ant has gotten rich off the back
    of the grasshopper and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.
    Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
    The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay
    his retroactive taxes, his home and AMMO is confiscated by the Government Green Czar and given to the grasshopper .

    The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ant's
    food and shooting up all the Ammo while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just happens to be the ant's old house, the house
    crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again.
    The grasshopper is found dead, Gun shot in a drug related incident, and the house, now abandoned, is taken
    over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the ramshackle, once prosperous and peaceful, neighborhood.
    MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!

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    ROFL!!! Good stuff.

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    I don't think that's the only reason. .223 was super scarce as well and now its all over and the price is dropping from the 1.00-1.45 per round to .42. The guys who loaded up at 1.00 and round and up are hosed if they want to sell it. they will loose their rear on it. Fact is we have WAY MORE shooters out there than we used to have. Plain and simple. Look at primers. They are thick on store shelves now. a while back they were 75-100 per thousand and now they are well stocked and down to 29-35 a thousand. They just cant keep up with .22lr and many powders that are on the market as so many more people are shooting. The demand will drop when the hoarders get cleared out but demand will NEVER go back to where it was. They are running at full capacity but that is not enough with .22lr. They need to expand capacity to meet the demand!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mauserboy View Post
    I have come to the conclusion that the insane shortage is due to hoarding by shooters, plain and simple.
    No kidding?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    I don't disagree with what you post. I do however, have a different spin if you will. I'm not a hoarder. Well at least I don't think I am. But I've been called a hoarder by others because I do have what some people call a big stash. I personally would call it woefully inadequate. Problem is, I shoot a lot. If I take my family to the range and shoot (which we do pretty much every week in the summer and once a month in winter) we all shoot the .22's. We burn through 500+ rounds in a matter of an hour and a half. I generally shoot over a hundred rounds alone without even a second thought. Just shot 200+ with my son on Sat. So for me and my family, a "stash" of even 10k rounds of .22 would barely be a year of shooting. I'm not saying how much I have because I hate doing that on the internet. But let's say at least for me, I don't consider it a "hoard" cause I do plan to shoot it. But I have had to taper back a bit since I can't just replace it when I need to. SO, when Wal-Mart had the sale, yes, I did what I could to buy every single box I could could eek out. But again, I'm not gonna bury it in a hole and rely on it for the zombie attack. I just know now that I can let my kids shoot for a year more and not have to worry about if I'm gonna find .22 again. And if more comes out, I'll probably buy more to replace what we shoot now and keep a buffer. Rotate out the old with the new as we go.

    Aside from that, I do agree and I hope those scalpers get stuck with a hoard of .22 they can't sell. But that's just my vengeful side talking.

    Mobius,

    Sticking my neck out here again... somebody grab the chainsaw!

    Only you can decide how much ammunition is "enough" for you. BUT... in times like these, if you're stocking up for a year's supply, and a year's supply for you is 10,000 rounds, and then you are adding a "buffer" on top of that, I see an issue. You are likely one of the guys standing in line grabbing all you can for yourself. I can see no other possible way you could maintain that level of purchasing. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I AM wrong, I am truly sorry.

    Also if you went to the WalMart sale and bought "every single box you could eek out", are you saying that you purchased more than the three brick limit they imposed on their customers? If you did, is that fair and honest? And is it fair to your fellow shooters who cannot find a single round for their kids to shoot?

    The tone of your post, combined with the fact that you posted it at all does not give the impression that you are the kind of hoarder some of us are talking about. You are just an extremely active shooter, more so than anyone I have ever met, and are doing everything within your power to maintain your previous level of shooting in a time of shortage. There's nothing inherently wrong with shooting a lot, but in times of shortage, would you consider backing off a little so others have a chance? One person alone is not going to turn this around, but if enough good-hearted folks take a similar approach, it will take less time to turn this around.

    For the record, I loaned out my .22 to a family member some years ago and do not currently have one. I have been hoping to purchase some ammunition for them as they don't have much money right now. They use it to take care of vermin on their property, and she needs to practice her shooting skills a bit. I doubt they would even shoot 100 rounds a year. Right now we cannot even find that. I am not asking for anything for myself here, by the way. What I am asking our shooting community in general, is to work together to turn this situation around. I see several ways to do that:

    1. Take only what you need. Leave the rest for someone else.

    2. Don't buy from the gougers.

    3. Calm down and ride it out. Supply will catch up with demand; it always does.

    4. Be fair an honest.

    I realize not everyone operates by those standards, and to some they probably sound really strange. It's a rare person in this country who is truly receptive to correction. You and I don't know each other, but I hope you won't take my post as condemning or anything. You seem like a good-hearted person. I guess this is just an appeal to you to consider being willing to take a hit during this shortage that's proportional to what the rest of us are dealing with.

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  16. #16

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    What baffles me is that the manufacturers and retailers aren't simply raising prices to a point where there is enough to go around. Prices simply convey a message to a consumer and the fact is that prices are not conveying the reality right now. Regardless of why people are buying so much, it is not important. Prices and prices alone will change behavior. People demand an excessive amount at one price and a much more reasonable amount at another price.
    I'm sure many will jump in and say how unfair it would be if the manufacturers raised their prices when their costs have perhaps stayed the same but would you rather pay a scalper on Alaska's List $80 for a brick or go to Cabela's or any other retailer and pay $30-$40? (I have no idea what the price is that would keep some on the shelf)
    I would much rather the retailers just raise the price to a more realistic level-that is the only way to keep ammo on the shelf. Period.
    This way everyone pays a little more at the store, but it is enough to undercut the scalpers and stop the hoarding.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    Mobius,

    Sticking my neck out here again... somebody grab the chainsaw!

    Only you can decide how much ammunition is "enough" for you. BUT... in times like these, if you're stocking up for a year's supply, and a year's supply for you is 10,000 rounds, and then you are adding a "buffer" on top of that, I see an issue. You are likely one of the guys standing in line grabbing all you can for yourself. I can see no other possible way you could maintain that level of purchasing. Correct me if I'm wrong, and if I AM wrong, I am truly sorry.

    Also if you went to the WalMart sale and bought "every single box you could eek out", are you saying that you purchased more than the three brick limit they imposed on their customers? If you did, is that fair and honest? And is it fair to your fellow shooters who cannot find a single round for their kids to shoot?

    The tone of your post, combined with the fact that you posted it at all does not give the impression that you are the kind of hoarder some of us are talking about. You are just an extremely active shooter, more so than anyone I have ever met, and are doing everything within your power to maintain your previous level of shooting in a time of shortage. There's nothing inherently wrong with shooting a lot, but in times of shortage, would you consider backing off a little so others have a chance? One person alone is not going to turn this around, but if enough good-hearted folks take a similar approach, it will take less time to turn this around.

    For the record, I loaned out my .22 to a family member some years ago and do not currently have one. I have been hoping to purchase some ammunition for them as they don't have much money right now. They use it to take care of vermin on their property, and she needs to practice her shooting skills a bit. I doubt they would even shoot 100 rounds a year. Right now we cannot even find that. I am not asking for anything for myself here, by the way. What I am asking our shooting community in general, is to work together to turn this situation around. I see several ways to do that:

    1. Take only what you need. Leave the rest for someone else.

    2. Don't buy from the gougers.

    3. Calm down and ride it out. Supply will catch up with demand; it always does.

    4. Be fair an honest.

    I realize not everyone operates by those standards, and to some they probably sound really strange. It's a rare person in this country who is truly receptive to correction. You and I don't know each other, but I hope you won't take my post as condemning or anything. You seem like a good-hearted person. I guess this is just an appeal to you to consider being willing to take a hit during this shortage that's proportional to what the rest of us are dealing with.

    -Mike
    Well to be clear, I have a buffer. That's all. I'm not adding a buffer on top of the year's shooting. I have a buffer that would probably last just under a normal year. I have cut back on shooting the .22lr. Had to because I didn't know when/if I'd get more. Now I've got enough that I can let the kids shoot again and if I can't buy it for a year, I might be ok. But I plan to buy more if I see it. I hope that makes sense.

    As for the ones who need it? I get your point, and maybe now I won't be so quick to try to keep up. I do pretty much do that though. I can't remember what I was getting recently, but guy asked if I wanted more. I told him, no, one box is good, I'm not greedy.

    I'll tell you this, I know you're not asking for ammo, but I'll donate a box to your friends. I have a Remington golden bullet 225 box for your friends if you want. I know you're not asking for it, but I don't mind sharing with others especially for kids. In fact, my loving wife bought a box of 50 .22WMR about a year ago thinking it was .22lr. I keep meaning to offer it in the ammo dump for someone, but I get busy and forget. I can't use it because I don't have a .22mag. It's good stuff, CCI HP + V 40gr, nickel plated cases. I'll give to anyone who has a kid that needs it, or if you're an adult all I ask is that you cover the cost. It was $15. If anyone wants it.

    I understand your points and I'm not really that different, but to be honest, I probably will still buy what I can. Although, I won't be buying 96 bricks like that one guy. I'll probably only pick up what I can when it's available. I guess I'm betting on the eventuality of the shortage easing in a year. I hope.

    Anyway, kind of rambly I know. Sorry. I am serious about the .22lr. pm me if you want, I'll happily donate to your family member.

  18. #18
    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    What I find strange is that so much of this ammo this is disappearing is not being shot in any quantity. I'm a frequent shooter and all of my friends are too and no one is shooting this stuff up. A box or two (of 50! not a brick) every few months is about it since it's so hard and unpredictable to resupply.

    My guess is that vast quantities are simply put away for whatever reason deemed important to the purchaser but shooting is not one of those reasons apparently. How many thousands of rounds are sitting around?

    We are being our own worst enemy here...

    As an aside- does anyone have any idea what the shelf life of .22LR even is? I know CF rifle ammo lasts nearly indefinitely but rimfire cartridges seem more prone to failure and I have first hand experience that shotgun shell can and will degrade in storage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    What I find strange is that so much of this ammo this is disappearing is not being shot in any quantity. I'm a frequent shooter and all of my friends are too and no one is shooting this stuff up. A box or two (of 50! not a brick) every few months is about it since it's so hard and unpredictable to resupply.

    My guess is that vast quantities are simply put away for whatever reason deemed important to the purchaser but shooting is not one of those reasons apparently. How many thousands of rounds are sitting around?

    We are being our own worst enemy here...

    As an aside- does anyone have any idea what the shelf life of .22LR even is? I know CF rifle ammo lasts nearly indefinitely but rimfire cartridges seem more prone to failure and I have first hand experience that shotgun shell can and will degrade in storage.
    22 is definitely made to looser tolerances. My guess (and this is just a guess) is that because the seal between the bullet and the case is not air tight, moisture etc will leak into the case making the powder less active over time. If you sealed it in air tight and dry compartments, I'd think it would be pretty close to indefinite. But that's a guess.

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    Yes 10,000 rounds a year sounds a lot at first. Then I remember I used to shoot a brick a week when I was a kid, a bit more in summer and less in winter but about a brick a week on average. That's about 2000 a month and 24,000 little pops per yeast . . . It adds up!


    To the hording stuff I just don't care what others do with their money, if they get there first and plop down their cash before me congratulations to them. What they do with their stuff they paid for is just none of my business at all . . . I'll ether be faster, sooner, pay more, find another way or do without.
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