Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 92

Thread: too many pink salmon

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,534

    Default too many pink salmon

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ors_picks=true

    The article below is again another example of not understanding ecosystem ramifications and going forward with hatchery stocking. I do not doubt that pink salmon impact on other salmon species will be seriously discussed. Chinook salmon down while sockeye up- wonder what the predator (pink salmon) and prey (other salmon juveniles) relationship really is.

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    723

    Default

    There's basically never any good news with the ocean anymore.

    All those pinks have to eat something, apparently.

    And the smaller, more numerous species usually push out the bigger, less numerous competitors, do they not?

  3. #3
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Willow, AK
    Posts
    3,368

    Default

    "As for increasing the commercial catch of pink salmon to deliberately reduce numbers, "this would be a novel idea," Lincoln said."
    "Eat wild salmon to save the ocean? A seafood marketing dream may be the wave of the future."

    Did a kindergartener write this as a conclusion to the article? The abundance problem the whole article talks about comes during the fish's rearing time, from them eating too much. Commercial catches happen after they're grown up and pretty much quit eating. So all that increased commercial catch does is fuel a greater demand for the commercial product of the catch, fueling managers to grow and release more fish to feed the increased demand.

    Wild salmon aren't the issue; its the enormous amount of hatchery fish being dumped in the ocean with very little research to their impact on other species or the ecosystem as a whole that is the problem. Millions upon millions of hatchery pinks rotting on the beaches of Prince William sound because their isn't the processing or catching capacity to handle them shows that there are too many hatchery fish being released.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mike h View Post
    There's basically never any good news with the ocean anymore.

    All those pinks have to eat something, apparently.

    And the smaller, more numerous species usually push out the bigger, less numerous competitors, do they not?
    I disagree wholeheartedly. We have plenty of good news. I cannot wait for fishing season here in SE. Near record coho runs in SE last year. Have you seen the 2014 chinook projections? Halibut fishing is as good as I've ever seen it. Fishing is just about at a all time high in SE. The are the good old days.

    On the flip side to the "pinks are eating everything" argument, all those pinks in the ocean provide food for halibut, kings, lingcod, whales, birds, coho, crab, etc. Pinks ARE one of the foods for the ocean. Not to mention that pink salmon are making the seine fleet in Alaska rather wealthy. Prices are 5x higher than there were 12 years ago. People are actually eating them, and liking it.

    I'd be more worried about the explosion of whales in the ocean and the amount of food they eat, than pink salmon. But, they'd rather blame everything else on the planet, and have an empty ocean than harm 1 whale.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    723

    Default

    You better be careful or all us south central people are going to move to SE.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    723

    Default

    Interesting about the halibut fishing given SE lowered the limit a few years back. Are crediting the new amount of halibut to the one fish limit?

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mike h View Post
    Interesting about the halibut fishing given SE lowered the limit a few years back. Are crediting the new amount of halibut to the one fish limit?
    We don't even have a one fish, any size limit.

    I view it as a result of the cuts everybody took. Comm fleet used to harvest almost 10 million pounds a year in SE. They were cut to the sane level of around 3 million pounds. Charters were cut from the insane limit of 2 fish any size, to a sane 1 fish, reverse slot limit. The result is that a lot of fish have been left in the ocean that normally would have been harvested. And yes, those fish add up every year they aren't harvested. In another 5 years, it'll be ridiculous. It gets better every year.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,534

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 270ti View Post
    .

    I'd be more worried about the explosion of whales in the ocean and the amount of food they eat, than pink salmon. But, they'd rather blame everything else on the planet, and have an empty ocean than harm 1 whale.
    You are not serious I hope about the whale comment.

    The issue is not whether SE is doing fine on pinks or coho -both predators. The issue is what is happening to other prey species and predators. No one knows the answer to that and if people are getting rich in SE because of pink salmon they will never ask the question. Pink salmon hatcheries will be one of those future debates but in my opinion the rush to pink salmon is a huge gamble and south central may be feeling it.

  9. #9

    Default

    So how are Pinks hurting SC?

    Dead serious about the the whale comment. Whales are exploding in population. You don't think that they compete with salmon/halibut for food?

  10. #10
    Member cormit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Tustumena Lake Road
    Posts
    355

    Default

    Increasing whale populations should be seen as a great indicator of a healthy ocean environment. Whales that travel all the way from Hawaii to Prince William Sound do so because the biomass of organisms and fish that awaits them doesn't exist in many other places

    It will certainly be sad day when we determine that whale populations might need to be reduced because they are eating too much of the same fish we want for ourselves. We might also need to remind ourselves that whales are not chasing fish for sport.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cormit View Post
    It will certainly be sad day when we determine that whale populations might need to be reduced because they are eating too much of the same fish we want for ourselves. We might also need to remind ourselves that whales are not chasing fish for sport.
    Why? Because they are mammals? Do you feel the same way about sea otters? Tried clamming in K-Bay lately?

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,534

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Why? Because they are mammals? Do you feel the same way about sea otters? Tried clamming in K-Bay lately?
    What does clamming at K Bay have to do with sea otters? That population is not big enough to impact clam production. Having studied clams in a past life the reproductive success of clams is highly variable.

    It will be a sad day because we think we are the only thinking creatures on earth.

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    What does clamming at K Bay have to do with sea otters? That population is not big enough to impact clam production. Having studied clams in a past life the reproductive success of clams is highly variable.

    It will be a sad day because we think we are the only thinking creatures on earth.
    The sea otter population in K Bay has exploded lately, from less than 1,000 to just under 4,000 several years ago (2010). Who knows what it is now. Clams make up anywhere from 10-40% of these otters' diet, along with mussels and crabs.

    Having spent some time in K Bay recently I can tell you that I was the only one in the cove, and someone beat me to the clam digging. Hundreds of collapsed holes that had been dug at high water, thousands of discarded clam shells, and fat, happy sea otters everywhere.

    What do sea otters have to do with clamming in K Bay? There are WAY more sea otters than needed for a healthy population. We are low on clams and crabs right now, which along with mussels make up these otters' primary diet, and they seem to have quite an appetite. And I'd bet their pelts are worth good money.

    It would be sad if we thought we were the only creatures on earth, but I don't feel bad that we're the ones in control. Just because I'm open to harvesting our resources doesn't mean I don't respect them.

  14. #14
    Member cormit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Tustumena Lake Road
    Posts
    355

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    we're the ones in control.
    It might be more accurate to say that "we're the ones out of control". The truth is , Alaska is full of people that think like you. As the supreme apex predator on this planet ..... we call the shots .... always have .... and create the twisted logic necessary to support our actions.

    After over harvesting the Peninsulas moose for decades ...... we declare war on bears and wolves. There are plenty of so called hunters in my neighborhood that would never pass up the chance to put a bullet in a wolf or a bear ..... and then brag about how many moose they just saved. How can you possibly expect to have reasonable hunting opportunity while there are still murderous bears and wolves running around?

    After rototilling our clam beds into oblivion for eons ...... we'll blame it on sea otters and eagles. Lets kill a few sea otters and eagles. (maybe should say harvest) ..... that should bring the clams back.

    King salmon spawning beds churned up and rendered sterile by hundreds of thousands of "propellor hours". Not our fault ... we're the ones in control.

    Too many whales eating our salmon ... where does it end? In my career as a lifelong commercial fisherman, I knew fishermen ( especially in the old days), that would shoot every seal, whale, or otter they encountered. Any thing that ate or might eat a salmon. We're not talking mental giants here ...... but they definitely were in control.

    Just because I'm open to harvesting our resources doesn't mean I don't respect them
    Sure you do.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cormit View Post
    It might be more accurate to say that "we're the ones out of control". The truth is , Alaska is full of people that think like you. As the supreme apex predator on this planet ..... we call the shots .... always have .... and create the twisted logic necessary to support our actions.

    After over harvesting the Peninsulas moose for decades ...... we declare war on bears and wolves. There are plenty of so called hunters in my neighborhood that would never pass up the chance to put a bullet in a wolf or a bear ..... and then brag about how many moose they just saved. How can you possibly expect to have reasonable hunting opportunity while there are still murderous bears and wolves running around?

    After rototilling our clam beds into oblivion for eons ...... we'll blame it on sea otters and eagles. Lets kill a few sea otters and eagles. (maybe should say harvest) ..... that should bring the clams back.

    King salmon spawning beds churned up and rendered sterile by hundreds of thousands of "propellor hours". Not our fault ... we're the ones in control.

    Too many whales eating our salmon ... where does it end? In my career as a lifelong commercial fisherman, I knew fishermen ( especially in the old days), that would shoot every seal, whale, or otter they encountered. Any thing that ate or might eat a salmon. We're not talking mental giants here ...... but they definitely were in control.



    Sure you do.

    Well that's a little harsh, don't you think?

    You and I both knew fishermen who would shoot every seal and sea otter they saw Those days are gone - guess what? THERE ARE MORE SEALS, SEA OTTERS, AND BEARS THAN THERE USED TO BE. My grandpa's 30-.06 hasn't killed a seal since he gave it to me. Coincidence?

    Unless I'm mistaken, K Bay sea otters - along with Peninsula Bear populations - are at historic highs right now. If the populations of these predators were low, as our Kings are, I could see your detest for the idea that thinning them out may be beneficial for humans given our preference for clams and moose. But they're not, and there is an element of truth to the fact that Killing bears will result in more moose for the short term. Or that less sea otters may result in more clams. That is not twisted logic. It is a logical conclusion given what we know.

    Obviously that can be taken too far - many people don't even stop to think about the fact that the explosion in the rabbit population in the recent past likely had significant impacts on the moose population - we didn't hear everyone screaming that dem bunnies need to be kilt.

    I get your sentiment - we don't need to be screwing with nature every single chance we get - I just think that some are taking it to the other extreme- say into the equivalent realm of the "the kings runs are in low abundance so we need to just shut all fishing down and anyone who harvests Kings is a bad person".

    Everything in moderation.

  16. #16
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,224

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 270ti View Post
    Dead serious about the the whale comment. Whales are exploding in population. You don't think that they compete with salmon/halibut for food?
    Does clawing their way back from being hunted to the verge of extinction equate to "exploding in population"? That's pretty good spin.

    Is it rational to think we can indefinitely kill other animals in order to reduce their populations because we see them as competitors for the same foods we eat, or will we concede at some point that perpetual uncontrolled growth of the human species is unsustainable?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  17. #17
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,224

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cormit View Post
    It might be more accurate to say that "we're the ones out of control". The truth is , Alaska is full of people that think like you. As the supreme apex predator on this planet ..... we call the shots .... always have .... and create the twisted logic necessary to support our actions.

    After over harvesting the Peninsulas moose for decades ...... we declare war on bears and wolves. There are plenty of so called hunters in my neighborhood that would never pass up the chance to put a bullet in a wolf or a bear ..... and then brag about how many moose they just saved. How can you possibly expect to have reasonable hunting opportunity while there are still murderous bears and wolves running around?

    After rototilling our clam beds into oblivion for eons ...... we'll blame it on sea otters and eagles. Lets kill a few sea otters and eagles. (maybe should say harvest) ..... that should bring the clams back.

    King salmon spawning beds churned up and rendered sterile by hundreds of thousands of "propellor hours". Not our fault ... we're the ones in control.

    Too many whales eating our salmon ... where does it end? In my career as a lifelong commercial fisherman, I knew fishermen ( especially in the old days), that would shoot every seal, whale, or otter they encountered. Any thing that ate or might eat a salmon. We're not talking mental giants here ...... but they definitely were in control.
    Spot on.
    .....
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Does clawing their way back from being hunted to the verge of extinction equate to "exploding in population"? That's pretty good spin.

    Is it rational to think we can indefinitely kill other animals in order to reduce their populations because we see them as competitors for the same foods we eat, or will we concede at some point that perpetual uncontrolled growth of the human species is unsustainable?
    Yes, at some point we will have to accept the fact that we cannot allow unlimited access to limited resources - something we're having a tough time coming to terms with on the Kenai. That does not mean we can't use what we know about our environment to responsibly shape it to suit our needs. I have a problem with the above line of thinking when it inhibits responsible development - which it does - look no further than the anti-MSY crowd to see that one play out...

    Ok, the whale thing - it seems some of you are awful quick to whip out the 'jump to conclusions' mat. I have no idea about our whale populations, but I do know that no one even identified what species of whales TI was talking about, yet somehow everyone knows that TI is wrong and is unreasonable for mentioning it, and that I all of a sudden don't respect our resources. Perhaps you are all much more informed on the current whale population that I, but I hardly doubt EVERY species of whale was hunted to the verge of extinction...

    While many may disagree with me, I feel it's inconsistent to argue that it's ok to augment/harvest stocks like our salmon for human gain (sustained yield), but not other animals. Are we basing this emotionally on animals' intelligence or beauty, or scientifically based on how much actual data we have on that species?

    My reason for bringing up sea otters is simple. While Nerka may disagree, I'm fairly certain that decreasing the number of this intelligent, Federally protected mammal in K Bay would increase the number of clams and crabs. If some of these Otters could be harvested they would be valuable, and the remaining otters would have less competition.

    I would love to know what part of my thinking translates into a lack of respect for the resource.

  19. #19
    Member cormit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Tustumena Lake Road
    Posts
    355

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Well that's a little harsh, don't you think?
    Don't mean to be harsh smithb, but more often than not, sustainability problems with fish and wildlife populations can be traced to a human propensity to omit themselves as a leading cause of the problem. I don't have a problem with harvesting bears or wolves .... but the notion that we are fulfilling some biological duty by exterminating any that we encounter ..... is ignorant. Wild animals are incredibly adaptable to surviving environmental changes ...... but it is another thing surviving the wrath of people ..... and all their ill conceived interventions. Let's remember that around the time of statehood ..... there was still a bounty here on the peninsula .... for eagles and dolly varden .... believed at the time to be harmful to spawning salmon.

    In the spring of 1986, there was a meltdown of one of the nuclear reactors at Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant in northern Ukraine. All people in the region were ordered to evacuate .... which they did. The wildlife (including populations of wolves) however did not leave. For the next twenty five years they instead adapted to a new environment ... which included no people. This environment with no people doesn't really exist quite like this anywhere else in the world and the area has been the focus of many scientific observers from around the world. And most would have never predicted what they observed.

    There was a PBS documentary on Chernobyl's wolves ....... if your internet connection is good enough .... you can watch it here. It's quite fascinating and there are good lessons to be learned there as well.

    http://video.pbs.org/video/2157025070/

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cormit View Post
    Don't mean to be harsh smithb, but more often than not, sustainability problems with fish and wildlife populations can be traced to a human propensity to omit themselves as a leading cause of the problem. I don't have a problem with harvesting bears or wolves .... but the notion that we are fulfilling some biological duty by exterminating any that we encounter ..... is ignorant. Wild animals are incredibly adaptable to surviving environmental changes ...... but it is another thing surviving the wrath of people ..... and all their ill conceived interventions. Let's remember that around the time of statehood ..... there was still a bounty here on the peninsula .... for eagles and dolly varden .... believed at the time to be harmful to spawning salmon.
    And now we have 1000 eagles pooping all over our landfill. How majestic.

    Exactly the same logic used by the anti-sustained yield management fisheries folks. Leave the fish alone. People are stupid and greedy. Just hook em up and play with them for a bit, then let them go - that's more respectful. Harvest is bad. Let's drink soy milk and eat tofu then drive our Prius to hot yoga. Mmmmk...

    Just stirring the pot..

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •