Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: KTUU Claims....New Details Emerge on Tatitna Plane Crash

  1. #1
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,218

    Default KTUU Claims....New Details Emerge on Tatitna Plane Crash

    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  2. #2
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,218

    Default

    FROM THE NTSB REPORT:

    At the time of the accident, a witness standing on the west end of the airport reported good visibility, but said it was "a little windy." He said that as he watched the airplane takeoff from the 1,200 foot long gravel runway, it began a shallow climb, followed by a gradual left turn before descending into the trees just beyond the departure end of the runway.
    During a telephone conversation with the NTSB IIC on September 11, 2013, a witness who arrived at the Tatitna Airport at approximately 1700 the day of the accident stated that he observed the accident airplane depart multiple times to the east with a tailwind. At the time of the accident he was inside a cabin near the airport when he heard gunfire, he walked out of the cabin and observed that the wind was still out of the east and noted that the accident airplane had departed with a tailwind.......
    ......An unspecified amount of meat and hunting gear was discovered amongst the incinerated wreckage, a set of caribou antlers was found between the left wing lift struts, and a rifle attached to the right wing lift struts.

    Alex Note: While they say an unspecified amount of meat.... they (NTSB) used the weight of 500 pounds of meat to figure the W&B for their report. Anyone here ever get 500 pounds of meat from two dressed-out caribou????... Me neither.... Even if you did, it would be impossible to load that much meat into a Super Cub with two guys and their gear inside.

    The temp was 57 degrees F, field elevation was 1450 ft and the baro was 30.02. With a dew point of 46F. So the density altitude was about 1,685 feet. The plane had a stock 150 horse according to NTSB.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  3. #3
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Ketchikan
    Posts
    132

    Default

    I haven't been to the Tatitna airport....why wouldn't he have taken off to the west into the wind...is there terrain there that he'd be worried about out-climbing or is there a slope or .......?

    ANC Daily News: http://www.adn.com/2014/03/25/339293.../99/100/&ihp=1

  4. #4

    Default

    Alex Note: While they say an unspecified amount of meat.... they (NTSB) used the weight of 500 pounds of meat to figure the W&B for their report. Anyone here ever get 500 pounds of meat from two dressed-out caribou????... Me neither.... Even if you did, it would be impossible to load that much meat into a Super Cub with two guys and their gear inside.

    Was there a belly pod?

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    alaska
    Posts
    187

    Default

    In The full narrative of the NTSB report the passenger estimated the weight of the meat to be 500 pounds.

  6. #6
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,218

    Default

    ACTUALLY IT SAYS THIS:

    ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
    Estimated Weight and Balance
    Due to the extensive fire damage, an exact weight and balance calculation could not me made. However, enough information was available for the IIC to make a conservative estimation of the airplane's weight at the time of the accident.
    The pilot's weight was taken from his most current FAA medical examination. The weight of the rear seat passenger was reported during a telephone conversation with the IIC.
    The Alaska Department of Fish and Game, 2013 – 2014 Alaska Hunting Regulations lists approximate weights of big game species, a Caribou carcass is estimated at 300 pounds. A Caribou carcass is defined as the weight following the removal of the viscera, head, hide, and lower legs. The rear seat passenger estimated the total weight of the Caribou meat to be 500 pounds (500 pounds was used for the weight and balance calculation).

    During a conversation with the IIC, the passenger said that the airplane's wing fuel tanks were completely filled previous to the accident flight from fuel jugs that had been flown in, and stored at the Tatitna Airport.

    No airframe or engine logbooks were discovered for examination, but the FAA maintains an electronic database that contains airworthiness documents for registered airplanes. The last documented official weight and balance information located in the FAA airworthiness database, for the accident airplane, was dated October 16, 1964. At that time, the basic empty weight of the airplane was 1,101 pounds, with a center of gravity of positive 13.9 inches.
    The NTSB IIC computed an updated basic empty weight and center of gravity based on documentation contained in the FAA airworthiness database that included equipment that had been added and removed from the accident airplane since October 16, 1964. The updated basic empty weight of the airplane was estimated at 1,188.25 pounds, with a center of gravity of positive 13.82 inches.
    Estimated weights
    Basic Empty Weight (computed by NTSB IIC) – 1,188.25 pounds
    Pilot– 250 pounds
    Rear Seat Passenger – 200 pounds
    Caribou meat – 500 pounds
    Caribou antlers – 15 pounds
    Rifle – 8 pounds
    Fuel (36 gallons) – 216 pounds
    Oil (8 quarts) – 15 pounds

    The gross weight of the airplane at the time of the accident was conservatively estimated to be 2,392.25 pounds, or 642.25 pounds over the approved maximum takeoff gross weight for the airplane. The estimated center of gravity at the time of the accident was positive 25.07 inches. The center of gravity range at 1,750 pounds (maximum gross weight) is positive 14.0 inches to positive 20.0 inches.
    External Load
    The FAA has established policy that allows external loads to be carried on fixed wing aircraft within the State of Alaska. The procedure has been established as a valid "special purpose" under 14 CFR, Part 21.25. These operations are authorized in the restricted category only and airplanes used for these operations must be issued a multiple airworthiness certificate. In addition, no person may be carried on board the airplane, when the airplane is operated in the restricted category, unless the person is a flight crewmember, flight crewmember trainee, or performs an essential function in connection with the external load.

    No record was found in the FAA electronic airworthiness documents database that indicated a multiple airworthiness certificate, authorizing eternal load operations, had been issued for the accident airplane.

    The FAA has developed a list of suggestions when carrying external loads on fixed wing airplanes, the suggestions state in part: It has been reported that on some aircraft, antlers secured to the wing struts can cause a significant air flow disturbance to the tail surfaces. Updated on Mar 20 2014 3:55PM
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  7. #7

    Default

    external loads induce a lot of drag. The total load should be decreased when you have an external load to compensate for the drag and weight of the ext load. Also putting the rack on the right side helps reduce torque, p factor, and slipstream affects.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    northern alaska
    Posts
    1,160

    Default

    How many people do you figure would still be alive today, had the pilot decided to make two trips instead of one?

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    3,293

    Default

    I doubt the weight was the primary issue. Aft CG while heavy? That's a problem.

    Just my opinion.

  10. #10
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,218

    Default

    I opine that it was a chain of bad choices that were all linked.

    1. Too heavy ( who knows by how much? Even if he had a 2000 pound gross kit installed, being at 2,000 was not a good idea for the following)
    2. Too far aft CG
    3. Tail Wind departure.
    4. Too much external drag.
    5. Too high a density altitude for all the above.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  11. #11

    Default

    It sounds like Mr. Mueller was skilled and accomplished with the plane in question. These kind of accidents get my attention most because he obviously knew what he was doing flying the plane, but still put himself in a position where it got away from him. The heavy load external load downwind aft cg combination might have been a combination he even had experience with...but it sounds like a couple steps beyond what might be normal no matter how well you know your limits.

    The main question I have after incidents like this one is how do I keep myself from developing a situation where I might try something outside the envelope like this? Hard to know what all pressures or motivations were at play. Very sad deal.

    Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk
    14 Days to Alaska
    Also available on Kindle and Nook

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    [QUOTE=Troy Hamon;1380566]It sounds like Mr. Mueller was skilled and accomplished with the plane in question. These kind of accidents get my attention most because he obviously knew what he was doing flying the plane, but still put himself in a position where it got away from him. The heavy load external load downwind aft cg combination might have been a combination he even had experience with...but it sounds like a couple steps beyond what might be normal no matter how well you know your limits.

    The main question I have after incidents like this one is how do I keep myself from developing a situation where I might try something outside the envelope like this? Hard to know what all pressures or motivations were at play. Very sad deal.

    Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

    Well, heavy loads and downwind operations are pretty high on the NO-NO list. We've all done some of that on occasion, but it's still high on that list . . . . .

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •