Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 203

Thread: Catch and Release - Blood Sports

  1. #1

    Default Catch and Release - Blood Sports

    Wow Les, tell us how you really feel. Gotta love this guy. He calls em like he sees em.


    http://peninsulaclarion.com/outdoors...r-blood-sports

  2. #2
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Aberdeen WA
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    "I canít help but wonder. If people get some kind of perverted enjoyment from seeing animals being abused, and suffering and dying, what else do they do for entertainment?"

    No need to wonder, Les. If you really want the answer, just ask that fellow you see in the mirror.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  3. #3
    Member 4merguide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Kenai Peninsula, Alaska
    Posts
    9,748

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    "I canít help but wonder. If people get some kind of perverted enjoyment from seeing animals being abused, and suffering and dying, what else do they do for entertainment?"

    No need to wonder, Les. If you really want the answer, just ask that fellow you see in the mirror.
    And what answer does the fellow you see in the mirror have?
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

  4. #4

    Default

    You'd think the president of PETA wrote that.

    Les Palmer, whoever he is, should hang his head in shame after writing such stupidity.

  5. #5

    Default

    Les is a hypocrite.

    Look through the years of articles and you'll see how he's become a "born again" salmon killer never releasing a single salmon.....

    except when he catches a fire engine red boot that isn't good for the smoker or table.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,519

    Default

    Most of the people who get their kicks by abusing animals do so secretly, but some are quite public about it. For example, many anglers, fishing only for the fun of it, hook king salmon, force them to fight for their lives, ďplayĒ them until they are exhausted, then release them to an unknown fate. Even when the numbers of these fish migrating to their spawning grounds are so low that sustainability of the stock is in doubt, these people continue to catch and release salmon. Some of these salmon die. Others donít successfully reproduce. As with fox throwing, both men and women enjoy this blood sport, and seemingly are proud of what theyíre doing. As with dog fighting and cock fighting, money is involved.

    I canít help but wonder. If people get some kind of perverted enjoyment from seeing animals being abused, and suffering and dying, what else do they do for entertainment?


    I think that Les has some qualifications in his piece that needs clarification before everyone jumps on him First, he says abused and suffering and dying .. those are strong qualifications. He notes above played to exhaustion and then released. That again is a major qualification. Finally, he notes that this is bad practice in low numbers. That point was not lost on me and therefore I believe he is taking to task those who want catch and release under all circumstances and/or do not practice good techniques. I do not know as his article is left hanging on this question.

    If one does abuse an animal and cause suffering then his conclusion is correct. I would challenge anyone here to defend the pure abuse of an animal or to cause it suffering (which for fish is a touchy subject since fish pain thresholds and ability to suffer is open to debate). Also, the ethics of catch and release is a topic of cultural norms not biological in most situations. We as a society have done away with practices that do not fit present cultural norms. Native American may agree with Les and be perfectly ethical to do so given they view animals from a different culture - it is not stupid to have that opinion.

    Frankly I watch the rainbow trout fishery in the upper river and can look at the data and see that the population is turned over 4 times each year. Maybe Les has a valid point on this species and location. I also have seen people in August catch chinook salmon and release them for fun when the season is closed - not what I consider ethical behavior.

    So from a very strong cultural position Less has labeled those who abuse animals and cause suffering to question themselves and a society that tolerates it. Those questions need to be asked in a society that uses animals for fun and relaxation. If not, in my opinion, we lose our humanity.

  7. #7
    Member JOAT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Soldotna, ALASKA since '78
    Posts
    3,720

    Default

    You can't be called a "hypocrite" when you see the error of your ways and take action to change your behavior. He outlines that pretty clearly in the beginning of the article...

    In recent years, Iíve given serious thought to some of my urges and actions as they pertain to fishing. Iíve realized a few things, one of which is how I feel about catch-and-release fishing. Iíve done a lot of this in past years, particularly in remote parts of Alaska, where there was no way to preserve fish, but also in my own backyard. Although Iím at heart a ďmeatĒ fisherman, over the past four decades of fishing in Alaska, Iíve hooked hundreds of trout, halibut and salmon with no intention of taking them home and eating them. At one time, in some quarters, I wouldíve admitted this with pride. Now I feel only shame.


    I say bravo to Les for finally standing up for the resource and denouncing the idiocy of intentional C&R.
    Winter is Coming...

    Go GeocacheAlaska!

  8. #8
    Supporting Member Hoyt-Hunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Mat-Su Valley
    Posts
    449

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 270ti View Post
    You'd think the president of PETA wrote that.

    Les Palmer, whoever he is, should hang his head in shame after writing such stupidity.
    Why is it that when a life long fisherman/ hunter becomes concerned with the decreasing population of a fish/ animal, he is now a PETA member full of stupid ideas?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.

  9. #9
    Member sayak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central peninsula, between the K-rivers
    Posts
    5,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    You can't be called a "hypocrite" when you see the error of your ways and take action to change your behavior. He outlines that pretty clearly in the beginning of the article...

    [/I]

    I say bravo to Les for finally standing up for the resource and denouncing the idiocy of intentional C&R.
    Yup. Never understood the great desire to best a fish that has a brain the size of my little finger nail. If I can't eat them, I'm not gonna torture them for my own fun.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoyt-Hunter View Post
    Why is it that when a life long fisherman/ hunter becomes concerned with the decreasing population of a fish/ animal, he is now a PETA member full of stupid ideas?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I cannot believe a bow hunter cannot see this article for what it is. Amazing.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    Yup. Never understood the great desire to best a fish that has a brain the size of my little finger nail. If I can't eat them, I'm not gonna torture them for my own fun.
    Really? So sport fishermen are now "torturing" fish? You are willing to give a fish that sort of humanity? You really want to go down that road considering they are killed by the millions before they even reach the rivers? Whether or not the fish gets released doesn't matter, even though the author made a very poor attempt to try to "clear" the meat hunters of any wrong doing. But, the language is there. You are torturing them by hooking them, making them fight for their lives until exhaustion. By using a rod/reel, you are compared to a dog or cock fighter.

    So basically, if anybody who agrees with this article ever picks up a fishing rod, they are a hypocrite.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    I say bravo to Les for finally standing up for the resource and denouncing the idiocy of intentional C&R.
    What's the difference between someone who bonks the fish in the head to eat, and someone who lets it go? According to the article, the damage is done before the fish gets to the bank as that poor, terrorized fish had to fight for it's life as it was played to exhaustion.

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Most of the people who get their kicks by abusing animals do so secretly, but some are quite public about it. For example, many anglers, fishing only for the fun of it, hook king salmon, force them to fight for their lives, ďplayĒ them until they are exhausted, then release them to an unknown fate. Even when the numbers of these fish migrating to their spawning grounds are so low that sustainability of the stock is in doubt, these people continue to catch and release salmon. Some of these salmon die. Others donít successfully reproduce. As with fox throwing, both men and women enjoy this blood sport, and seemingly are proud of what theyíre doing. As with dog fighting and cock fighting, money is involved.

    I canít help but wonder. If people get some kind of perverted enjoyment from seeing animals being abused, and suffering and dying, what else do they do for entertainment?


    I think that Les has some qualifications in his piece that needs clarification before everyone jumps on him First, he says abused and suffering and dying .. those are strong qualifications. He notes above played to exhaustion and then released. That again is a major qualification. Finally, he notes that this is bad practice in low numbers. That point was not lost on me and therefore I believe he is taking to task those who want catch and release under all circumstances and/or do not practice good techniques. I do not know as his article is left hanging on this question.

    If one does abuse an animal and cause suffering then his conclusion is correct. I would challenge anyone here to defend the pure abuse of an animal or to cause it suffering (which for fish is a touchy subject since fish pain thresholds and ability to suffer is open to debate). Also, the ethics of catch and release is a topic of cultural norms not biological in most situations. We as a society have done away with practices that do not fit present cultural norms. Native American may agree with Les and be perfectly ethical to do so given they view animals from a different culture - it is not stupid to have that opinion.

    Frankly I watch the rainbow trout fishery in the upper river and can look at the data and see that the population is turned over 4 times each year. Maybe Les has a valid point on this species and location. I also have seen people in August catch chinook salmon and release them for fun when the season is closed - not what I consider ethical behavior.

    So from a very strong cultural position Less has labeled those who abuse animals and cause suffering to question themselves and a society that tolerates it. Those questions need to be asked in a society that uses animals for fun and relaxation. If not, in my opinion, we lose our humanity.
    There is no way you can be a friend to sportsmen and support the idiotic comparisons made in that very poorly written article. Sport fishing is a blood sport? Comparing it to dog fighting? You do realize that if you are going to use dramatic language to try to prove some agenda driven point, that it applies to all catch and release fishing right? And, applies to all sport fishing in general, right? Are all the bass fishermen down south who catch and release bass terrorizing those fish?

    And then he tops it off with his equally idiotic final sentence:
    I canít help but wonder. If people get some kind of perverted enjoyment from seeing animals being abused, and suffering and dying, what else do they do for entertainment?


    So now he's using the word "perverted" to describe what sportsmen do? There is something wrong with watching animals being abused, (hooked), suffering (played), and dying(bonk on the head or release).

    So what else do we do for entertainment Les? Are we out there being "perverted" and abusing children? Is that what you are implying? Are we out there burning kittens and throwing puppies into rivers? What exactly did you mean with that last statement? That sport fishermen are sick and twisted people?

  14. #14
    Supporting Member Hoyt-Hunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Mat-Su Valley
    Posts
    449

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 270ti View Post
    I cannot believe a bow hunter cannot see this article for what it is. Amazing.
    I am looking at it from a different point. His language might be over the top to get his point across, but I think I understand his point.

    270, you are getting a little wound up over language. We all (fisherman & hunters) should be doing and saying what we can to preserve and increase the numbers of our game.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.

  15. #15

    Default

    Over the top doesn't even begin to describe what he wrote. And believe me, it's all about the language, because he has no point. Comparing sport fishing to a blood sport is outrageous, and implying that somehow sportsmen enjoy a perverted sense of enjoyment is one of the most insulting things any sportsman can hear.

    So all those steelhead fishermen who catch and release are torturers engaging in a blood sport, similar to dog fighting? Every trout fisherman, every pike fishermen, every bass fisherman, just about every fly fisherman on the planet?

    What about bow hunting? You do realize that anti's use the same tactics against bow hunting, right? And hunting in general!

    Les has no point. He has an agenda, and he made a huge mistake in running his mouth via this article. Every sportsman should be raging right now, that he chose to throw a certain segment of sportsmen "under the bus".

    If Les opposes catch and release fishing in a certain area, at a certain time due to conservation issues, then just say it. But the blood-sport article should be career ending for him.

  16. #16

    Default

    I posted the article cause I thought it would spark some activity, not necessarily because I agree with Les, although I appreciate the conversation.

    No doubt it is in our nature to derive pleasure from pain, however I don't think that's why most people engage in hunting, fishing, cockfighting, or anything else Mr. Palmer may qualify as a "blood sport". While no doubt some get off on watching animals or other humans suffer, most enjoy the thrill of the hunt, the fight, or the challenge. I say this while watching the "Iron Cowboy" competition, where the torture could quickly change hands from the bull to the cowboy, and not feeling one bit bad about it. No sense being ashamed of our nature.

    I've always taken the "life on the farm" approach to animals and their purpose - I love my dog, but he's a dog, not my kid. I kill fish by the thousands without stopping to appreciate each one, and know its possible to respect animals greatly even while killing them or causing them extreme discomfort. Never been one to care too much about animal's (or people's) feelings. If you like to catch fish and let em' go, knock yourself out so long as there's plenty of them. If frying ants with a magnifying glass is your thing, go get em' big guy, I really don't care.

    I do take issue with the mindset that C&R fishing is somehow a more noble or refined endeavor than harvest since it doesn't always result in the animal's death, as is expressed by the shock and awe by some that C&R could even be considered in the "blood sport" category. I couldn't disagree more, especially with spawning bed C&R as we know it on the Kenai.

    Mortality estimates for C&R King fishing are an outdated guess at best. We have no idea of its effects on spawning fecundity. Nevertheless, we use spawning area C&R fishing above the sonar as a "conservation tool" for weak stocks in an attempt to continue to allow unlimited access to a limited resource even in times of low abundance. The BOF just solidified it as a weak stock management tool by directly tying commercial sockeye fishing opportunity to C&R King fishing opportunity.

    For me, the lack of knowing or caring to know the effects of this practice on a stock of fish in low abundance shows a disturbing lack of respect for the resource which pales in comparison to any lack of respect to individual fish. I say this as a fishermen who wishes to harvest Kings any time the sustainability of the stock is not in jeopardy.

    I think that is why so many locals have a problem with C&R fishing as we know it.

  17. #17
    Member sayak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central peninsula, between the K-rivers
    Posts
    5,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 270ti View Post
    Really? So sport fishermen are now "torturing" fish? You are willing to give a fish that sort of humanity? You really want to go down that road considering they are killed by the millions before they even reach the rivers? Whether or not the fish gets released doesn't matter, even though the author made a very poor attempt to try to "clear" the meat hunters of any wrong doing. But, the language is there. You are torturing them by hooking them, making them fight for their lives until exhaustion. By using a rod/reel, you are compared to a dog or cock fighter.

    So basically, if anybody who agrees with this article ever picks up a fishing rod, they are a hypocrite.
    I will happily go down that road. Fishing in its traditional practice is not hypocritical.
    I don't anthropomorphize fish, but I do believe they were created to feed people, not to serve as a means of gratification by fighting them to an inch of their lives, then "nobly" set them free. Nope, can't go along with that, sorry. I'm not directly condemning people who do this, mind you, live and let live, and all that. But I personally find that practice inhumane. In my opinion, catching a fish, however, with the intent of eating it is ethically supportable.

    I won't apologize for Palmer; I don't agree with all he writes, but it does seem that he has evolved in his understanding and practices. Calling people "hypocrites" because they have come to see things differently, and who honestly say that they have changed, is not a fair assessment, 270ti.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,519

    Default

    270ti - in answer to your question - yes all hunter/fisherman participate in a blood sport by any measure. The term sportsman defines that for us and the fact we kill animals defines that for us. So try not to get too hyped over that label. It is accurate.

    Next, we tend to treat animals in the Western world as some kind of gift and that we are above them. If one is purely causing an animal pain and suffering under the assumption we can do whatever we want to them I have a problem with that and so does most of society. We react to dog fighting and cock fighting but allow millions of chickens to be herded into tight spaces and pigs that cannot turn around before we kill them.

    People are starting to rebel against that behavior because of the suffering to the animals. tbSmith may allow ants to be burned to death for enjoyment but I doubt he would stand up and allow that to happen to a Great Ape. There is a fundamental flaw in his thinking and ethics here. The issue is animals suffering not the quality or use of the animal. In fact, we know from history that people who torture animals usually go on to have societal problems.

    So one question for Les and the anti-catch and release crowd is whether fish suffer when hooked for whatever reason. The gathering of food removes this ethical debate since we kill animals for food. However, we do have laws and regulations to govern the methods of killing and an effort to reduce suffering. We do not allow moose to be shot with a pellet gun for a reason. So catch and release is not the same as fishing for food.

    Also, you failed to see that Les put lots of qualifications on his comments. I would ask him if a person hooked a fish and fought it quickly to the boat prior to significant lactic acid build up would he agree it should be released? How about a fish where the season is closed but you are fishing for other fish? How about a situation where the driving force is not recreation but economic gain for a community. Does catch and release have a place in that discussion even if it means causing suffering of an animal. How can one reduce suffering in that situation?

    If people want to read about this topic from someone who understands it well and is of a mind set that suffering is one key to unlocking this door on ethical behavior of animals I would suggest reading Peter Singer " Writings on an ethical life". You may not agree with him as he does not condone the Western approach to animals of they are here and we can do anything to them we want but it is a good read for understanding a different viewpoint.

  19. #19
    Member cod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Kenai Peninsula, Ak.
    Posts
    2,213

    Default

    I'm siding with 270I on this one. This article's position is waaay over the top. Akin to the commercials you see showing sad puppy dog eyes from their terrorized life and asking for money to save just one.
    Hoyt Hunter, your desire to pursue animals with a pointed stick and 'bleeding' them to death is the next step down the forked road Les is leading you. You might rethink your position of support.
    While I can see how sportmen may be sucked in to the portrait Les is painting due to human nature, one had better carefully consider how one should respond to supporting/vocalizing ones 'feelings'. I find this kind of article just another way to chip away the foundations that once united groups of people who shared certain values. The world continues to become more and more divided between groups that used to enjoy life as one united unit. A certain book describes certain 'creations' as being put here for man to use as man sees fit. Perhaps Les should keep his (apparently) evolving epiphanies just between himself and his Maker until he is sure he is certain he is correct and rock solid in his beliefs.
    Your sarcasm is way, waaaayyyyyyyy more sarcastic than mine!

  20. #20
    Member 4merguide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Kenai Peninsula, Alaska
    Posts
    9,748

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    270ti - in answer to your question - yes all hunter/fisherman participate in a blood sport by any measure. The term sportsman defines that for us and the fact we kill animals defines that for us.
    For some reason, even as a child growing up learning to hunt and fish, I have always had an "issue" that I am considered a "sport" hunter or "sport" fisherman. I guess it's because in this context I feel the use of the term "sport" is associated with killing, and I don't view killing as sport. I think I have just always implied the word "sports" with some kind of fun ball game, or running, etc... competition, which I used to enjoy and be pretty good at. Hunting and fishing is nowhere near that to me. I don't feel I am competing with a fish or animal....I'm trying to kill it. I kill fish and game to put food on the table.....nothing "sporting" about it really.

    I don't get a "thrill" nor even "like" or "enjoy" the actual act of killing a fish or animal. I take killing them seriously and am thankful, and humbled, when doing so. The real enjoyment I get from hunting and fishing is that I'm out in mother nature knowing that I can legally have the opportunity to help fill my freezer, and the chance that I can be up close and personal with these critters that I love and respect so much.

    I've always said that if I didn't have to kill a fish or animal to be able to eat it, I gladly would.
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •