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Thread: W760 vs h414

  1. #1
    Member Hunt&FishAK's Avatar
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    Default W760 vs h414

    So been doing alot of reading on other forums and there are varying testimonies that say they are the same powder. My father also attests to this fact but warns that the old w760 and the newer h414 are slightly different enough to cause problems where recent reloading data is concerned. I don't have any w760, but I've got h414 and would like to work up a good load with it in my 3006 with 165grain ABs and Sierra game kings. In my nosler #7 manual, it calls for w760. But in my lee 2nd edition of modern reloading, it calls for either powder.
    nosler #7 book page 432
    3006 165-168 nosler
    52 starting
    56 max w/ max vel of 2882

    lee 2nd edition page 382
    165 grain jacketed bullet
    w760 and 414
    51 starting
    56.5 max vel 2877
    it lists them together with same results

    so what y'all think?



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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt&FishAK View Post
    ...so what y'all think?
    I think your dad's cautionary warning was well grounded. But I also think that these two powders are similar enough, if not exactly identical, in the 30-06 that you're safe with the data you've posted. FWIW, my Hodgdon's #26 concurs with the data you have as well. That's three published sources in close agreement. I'd be comfortable starting H414 around 51 grains and working up toward 56.

    Edit addendum: Here's the 30-06 page from Hodgdon #26 manual.
    Attachment 77054
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    Most think they are one and the same but there are lot to lot differences even in the same powder. Always start low and work up. I use them as if they were the same but I'm not going to the max either.

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    Member marshall's Avatar
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    Hunt&FishAK,

    When you are quoting differences between manuals you are leaving out important pieces of the puzzle. What are the differences in barrel length, twist rate and number of grooves? These cause different velocities when everything else is equal. I too think based on available data that W760 and H414 are as close to identical as can be and probably currently the same.

    What type of brass is one book using versus the other? I have two identical shooting .308 loads that use a 0.4gr difference in charge of RL-15 due to different brands/weight of brass, Lapua versus Hornady.

    What primers are they using? Documented test data has Winchester primers producing up to 2000 psi more pressure than CCI/Federal. You can't just look at charge weights and claimed velocities and expect the same results.

    If one recipe uses a longer test barrel, hotter primer or heavier brass any one of those components will cause a higher pressure and generally a faster speed.

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    Member Hunt&FishAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    Hunt&FishAK,

    When you are quoting differences between manuals you are leaving out important pieces of the puzzle. What are the differences in barrel length, twist rate and number of grooves? These cause different velocities when everything else is equal. I too think based on available data that W760 and H414 are as close to identical as can be and probably currently the same.

    What type of brass is one book using versus the other? I have two identical shooting .308 loads that use a 0.4gr difference in charge of RL-15 due to different brands/weight of brass, Lapua versus Hornady.

    What primers are they using? Documented test data has Winchester primers producing up to 2000 psi more pressure than CCI/Federal. You can't just look at charge weights and claimed velocities and expect the same results.

    If one recipe uses a longer test barrel, hotter primer or heavier brass any one of those components will cause a higher pressure and generally a faster speed.

    Fun isn't it...
    The lee book doesn't specify any of that. But in the nosler book it's nosler brass (of course) and a winchester large rifle primer,24" lilja barrel w twist of 1:10"
    Ill be using either Remington or winchester brass. And winchester primers. My barrel is 24" fluted with a twist of 1:10"
    thanks for pointing out the missing pieces, I didn't think to include them in my original post



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    Every gun is slightly different than the next even two rifles following each other off the assembly line. Each lot of powder, primers, cases and even bullets can be slightly different than the next. Loading manuals are guide lines as to where to start and approximately where to end. If you aren't familiar with over pressure signs it's a good idea to stop a little early in the work up of a load. Read up a bunch on reading pressure signs and then progress slowly. If you get to sticky bolt lift STOP and back down, you are TOO high. Lee gets most if not all of their loading data from others loading books and just compiles it in their book and they don't show a lot of important stuff as to what was used to get there. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, and ALWAYS start low and work up.

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    Member marshall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt&FishAK View Post
    The lee book doesn't specify any of that. But in the nosler book it's nosler brass (of course) and a winchester large rifle primer,24" lilja barrel w twist of 1:10"
    Ill be using either Remington or winchester brass. And winchester primers. My barrel is 24" fluted with a twist of 1:10"
    thanks for pointing out the missing pieces, I didn't think to include them in my original post

    For whatever it's worth, I've found the Nosler brass to be on the light side about the same as Winchester with the cases I've compaired. This basically means that it has higher powder charge room and lower pressure than a heavier piece with the same charge.

    Winchester primers are documented in more than one private pressure test to be a hotter than say Remington, Federal or CCI.

    Based on averages on the data you posted it appears that those powders are achieving about 51 fps per grain of charge. Consider stepping up in 0.6gr increments for a bump of about 30 fps per step.

    Just thinking out loud...

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    How many of you are missing one key point when using the Nosler manual ? Quite a number of their testing barrels are "Pressure Test Barrels' ? This is all good and fine for "manual results" but when we are trying to correlate these loads to what is safe or what is efficient in OUR rifle there will be a definite difference ! After you work up your load in your firearm and are comfortable with it the ONLY caveat I suggest is that you take these loading manuals data with a grain of salt at the least !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by back country View Post
    How many of you are missing one key point when using the Nosler manual ? Quite a number of their testing barrels are "Pressure Test Barrels' ? This is all good and fine for "manual results" but when we are trying to correlate these loads to what is safe or what is efficient in OUR rifle there will be a definite difference ! After you work up your load in your firearm and are comfortable with it the ONLY caveat I suggest is that you take these loading manuals data with a grain of salt at the least !!
    I traded my 414 for RL 19. Which I know from previous loads ( my dad had it) works wonders in my rifle. So far most of the nosler loads has worked good for me.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt&FishAK View Post
    I traded my 414 for RL 19. Which I know from previous loads ( my dad had it) works wonders in my rifle. So far most of the nosler loads has worked good for me.

    Rl-19 works fine in the ought six. I've used it when I've shot 200gr bullets with great success.

    Nosler data has been good for me too. Their charge weights have been more represenative of what velocity you can expect give or take a little, at least more so than other manuals.

    Lyman seems to be a little hot, Seirra is a little light and Barnes is whacked out accross the board. These are my observations, yours may be widely different...

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    Rl-19 works fine in the ought six. I've used it when I've shot 200gr bullets with great success.
    In my experience "200gr bullets" is a key point that Marshall has pointed out when using RL19 in the 30-06. From my comparative data this powder is a bit slow for 180 gr and lesser weight bullets, i.e., if you're looking for safe book velocity. To put it another way RL19 works best with heavier bullets. I will be very interested to learn what velocities you get from 165-168gr. bullets with this powder over the test range.

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