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Thread: Why do 15% of rifle sheep tags go to NR?

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    Member Ken R's Avatar
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    Default Why do 15% of rifle sheep tags go to NR?

    The other sheep threads got me to thinking about the 10% allocation and whether the NR tags in the Chugach were already limited to 10%. I added up the tags from draw supplement and ~15% of the rifle tags go to NR (~12% if you add in the archery tags). Feel free to check my math, but that doesn't seem consistent with other states allotment to NR. I hunt/apply in alot of lower 48 states and 5-10% is most common. Some don't even allow draws for certain animals in units until enough resident tags are given out to allow a NR tag and still maintain 10% (or 5% or whatever that states allotment for NR tags is) whereas Alaska is guaranteeing them 1 tag in areas that may only have 2 resident tags (Upper Eagle River)--that is 33% of the tags for that area to NR!

    Does anyone know the history as to why the NR allotment is so high? Is it based on some historical data or just being pushed by APHA?

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    Member muzzyman87's Avatar
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    Money.....
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    I'm with muzzyman....Follow the money!

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    The frustrating thing about this is how it started. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that the tag allotments grew out of a proposal before the Board of Game to limit non-residents to a maximum of 10% of available tags in areas restricted to drawing permits. After taking public testimony, the Board later decided in a closed-door meeting to change it from a maximum allotment to a guaranteed allotment, which is a very different thing than what was proposed and what people testified on.

    I like that our system allows for public involvement and input, but I lost a lot of faith in the Board of Game process when this happened.

    Another area where non-residents get far more than 10% of the available tags is Kodiak brown bear. I cannot even fathom what the justification for this is.

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    Member tlingitwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    The frustrating thing about this is how it started. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that the tag allotments grew out of a proposal before the Board of Game to limit non-residents to a maximum of 10% of available tags in areas restricted to drawing permits. After taking public testimony, the Board later decided in a closed-door meeting to change it from a maximum allotment to a guaranteed allotment, which is a very different thing than what was proposed and what people testified on.

    I like that our system allows for public involvement and input, but I lost a lot of faith in the Board of Game process when this happened.

    Another area where non-residents get far more than 10% of the available tags is Kodiak brown bear. I cannot even fathom what the justification for this is.
    As far as Kodaik, gotta be money as well. Money for the guides. It ticks me off to no end to know that just about any non-resident can put in for tags and have enormous odds in their favor. All is cost them is $$. This born-n-raised Alaskan has been putting in for those same tags since the late 80's and have never sniffed one.
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    Member broncoformudv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    The frustrating thing about this is how it started. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that the tag allotments grew out of a proposal before the Board of Game to limit non-residents to a maximum of 10% of available tags in areas restricted to drawing permits. After taking public testimony, the Board later decided in a closed-door meeting to change it from a maximum allotment to a guaranteed allotment, which is a very different thing than what was proposed and what people testified on.

    I like that our system allows for public involvement and input, but I lost a lot of faith in the Board of Game process when this happened.

    Another area where non-residents get far more than 10% of the available tags is Kodiak brown bear. I cannot even fathom what the justification for this is.
    The NR draw tag % is an interesting discussion. There have been a few threads about this in the past but they have mainly been around the sheep tags. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to bring up the Kodiak tags. With the way that system works NR's hunting with a guide have almost 100% chance of being drawn while NR's hunting with 2nd degree of kindred are only allowed to apply for Resident tags. Does anyone else see an issue with this?

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    Member Ken R's Avatar
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    Good Point on the Kodiak BB tags--hadn't even thought about that and how unfair that system is. Funny thing is a big guide here in the Chugach (LK) submitted a proposal a few years ago trying to mirror Kodiak in that the non-residents next of kin were to be counted in the resident pool for Chugach sheep. It obviously didn't get traction, but that is scary that the guides essentially have 15% of the tags locked down and that isn't enough -at least for some of them (LK).

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    The Kodiak BB information is very interesting. Big money and keeping the money flowing is what it's all about, plain and simple. Sad but true and the residents of this state get the short end of the stick for those rare hunts.

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    The problems associated with rationing a limited resource are complex and like the king salmon scarcity, it involves a lot of finger pointing and no group wants to limit their take.

    Mark had an excellent posting regarding Ted Spraker's comments on too many guides in the dall sheep chase.

    Add to that the loose interpretation of "second degree of kindred".......in most families a brother-in-law does not share common ancestry.

    IMO, sheep tag prices [and other tags] have not kept up with inflation. If a sheep tag were $1K and only half as many were sold, the state would still be ahead. I really doubt if a NR paying $15K for a guided hunt is going to cancel over the additional fee. Alaska does not have to compete with BC and YT as the number of hunters out there exceeds the resource.

    The regulations allow military personnel to serve once in Alaska and maintain residency for hunting/fishing license even though they may not actually live in Alaska for years. When they do return to hunt as a resident, they may bring the "second degree of kindred" brother-in-law. I know it's hypothetical but it an example of how complex but loose the requirements are.

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    Member shimano 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VernAK View Post

    The regulations allow military personnel to serve once in Alaska and maintain residency for hunting/fishing license even though they may not actually live in Alaska for years.
    Your a little off base here.. I am Active Duty myself and have researched/spoke with Fish and Game on the topic. The state does not simply allow AD to remain a resident just because they were stationed here. In order to remain a resident for hunting purposes you would have to:

    Keep a residence in AK
    Continue to collect the PFD
    Keep an AK drivers license
    Not buy resident hunting license anywhere except AK
    Continue to show proof of residence in AK
    Remain registered to vote in AK

    So I don't think you have to worry about to many of us falling through the cracks and maintaining an AK hunting license.

    Mark

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    For the sake of brevity I didn't detail the residency requirements as you stated. Indeed there probably are not many but I have witnessed a couple cases as mentioned. Probably not many out there but it is another loophole that doesn't make sense.

    The number of PFDs going out to military folks residing in other states may be telling.

    Another area I see abused is the Seniors License never has to be renewed and some folks moved to AZ long ago......probably not putting a big dent in sheep populations.

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    I'll bet that as soon as residents agree to start paying for game management in Alaska (in other words start paying for their tags) they'd start having a lot more say in matters. As long as non-residents are the only ones paying for tags the residents can't complain too much.

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    You have a point wags.....even though I have a Geezer license, I would have no problem paying $100 for a sheep tag.

    I think it also boils down to the sportsmen just don't lobby very well.....at least not as well as the various commercial groups.

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    Member pa 5-0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken R View Post
    Good Point on the Kodiak BB tags--hadn't even thought about that and how unfair that system is. Funny thing is a big guide here in the Chugach (LK) submitted a proposal a few years ago trying to mirror Kodiak in that the non-residents next of kin were to be counted in the resident pool for Chugach sheep. It obviously didn't get traction, but that is scary that the guides essentially have 15% of the tags locked down and that isn't enough -at least for some of them (LK).
    Speaking of bear tags, NRs and LK. I read an article from a guy that hunted with him late season and I believe it was last year. After this guy killed one, he said that made LK's operation 89 for 89 that year(or something close to that). I was rollin the numbers around in my head even if those hunts were just $10k each. Some may be double that. I assume most were non-residents. You guys must have a ton of brown bears up there and LK must be a pretty rich dude.

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    Usually, there is an open draw before the limited draw. The states then determine what percentage of applicants were nonresidents and set the award percentage at that rate.
    what I mean is, assume that nons make up 30% of the open draw applicants. States then will allow this particular limited draw to exceed the stated 10% limit.
    This is not always the case but is a potential reason for what the OP asked.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    That's not the way it works here. The hunt #s are different for non-residents, so their allocation is set before the draw and is not dependent on what percentage of the applicants are non-residents. I can apply for the same areas as non-residents, but not the same draw number. In fact, in some cases there are only as many applicants as there are tags, thus reports of some non-resident draws having 100% odds. In many cases a guide-client agreement is required before applying, so guides that basically have an exclusive area will line up their handful of clients and have them apply for the "random" draw. Meanwhile the resident odds in some of these same areas are in the low single digits. Makes all kinds of sense, right?

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    I haven't posted in forever but it's good to see that not much has changed. It wasn't that long ago that there was NO cap on Non Res sheep draw tags and now there will be those who push for it to be cut from 10% to something lower. I understand your problems with the bear draw but what's wrong with keeping 90% of sheep tags for residents? I'm glad that I found a way to apply for tags back in the good old days. I got lucky, drew a couple of Chugach tags and was able to experience your amazing state. As a wise man once said, There is no substitute for good timing. Wish I could have hunted back in the 60's where ANYONE could hunt almost ANYWHERE they wanted. Now that is Freedom!

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    Member Bighorse's Avatar
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    Still can hunt all over creation up here. Lace em up,buy your license and tags (pleural) and chase some Sitka Blacktail in the Tongass. No guide needed, total freedom assured.

    As for our Sheep and Kodiak Bears, they are a special resource we would like to enjoy hunting as residents of the 49th state. We care for the sick, build our roads, teach our children and build communities here. There should be benefits for that commitment.

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    People griping about military benefits now even? Sheesh I've read it all now.

    Would you guys be cool with a separate resident pool being established guaranteeing as many tags as the NR pool with the caveat that to draw said tag you too have to hire a guide? Fork up the dough and your odds will equal a NR in the few instances they are ahead. Since its so much better to be able to pay $18k to draw a tag and hunt vs playing the odds and hunting for essentially free this should be a no brainer.

    Tons of federal land, money, and workers help run the great 49th state including its great natural resources. Alaskans seem to be the first to forget this. I can't and won't ever afford a guide for brown bear mtn goat or sheep. For this reason ill be moving to Alaska in a year or two. To establish residency and chase all 3 of them for <$75 is unfathomable. Move over, more competition heading your way to join in on the horrible hunting privileges up north.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Nobody is complaining about our hunting opportunities. The issue is that the allocation is guaranteed rather than a maximum and that in many cases a non-resident has a far higher chance of drawing a tag. In some areas the non-resident allocation is much higher than 15%.

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