Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Mat-Su celebrates today's decision...

  1. #1
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Aberdeen WA
    Posts
    4,516

    Default Mat-Su celebrates today's decision...

    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  2. #2
    Member cormit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Tustumena Lake Road
    Posts
    355

    Default

    Don't you love that photo? Seven dead kings laying in the water. It's just not enough..

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,519

    Default

    they got nothing which points out the stupidity of this. drift fleet total coho harvest at high 100,000 but not all saved. what i saved is spreard out over 100s of stream miles-total return is 1million . they will never measure impact. however lost sockeye yield will be measured and if kenai or kasilof runs go down those mat/su pu fisherman lose-they deserve it for being stupid.

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,519

    Default

    I just want to comment on the Board Chairman again. Today, in his wisdom, said he does not believe the over escapement data. Wonder what biological degree he has to make this statement? This is what I mean about crazy stuff going on. The empirical data are clear on this for Kenai and Kasilof. In the Kenai around 800,000 spawning sockeye produce a yield on average of 4 million. In contrast, spawning numbers greater than 1.2 million produce a yield of 2.5 million or 1.5 million fish less than lower escapements. So what the Chairman is saying is that these data are no good and his personal emotional view on this prevails or he knows that this is the case and it will cause less fishing time for the commercial fishery and drive them out of business. What he does not understand is that the PU and sport fisheries suffer and yet he said he wants to put salmon on Alaska plates. If he really wanted to do that he would maximize the sockeye returns. So that is why I keep beating on his stupidity and ignorance and those on the Board who believe his line of crap.

  5. #5
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Willow, AK
    Posts
    3,357

    Default

    There was a response in the Daily News article comments saying habitat is to blame for poor coho runs and anyone who believes otherwise is stupid. Trying to manage known sources of mortality is stupid and ignorant. There's some huge holes in that statement and worldview. Some systems in the Valley have pike, and little angler pressure. Some have very high angler pressure and no pike. Some have pike and high angler pressure. Many have no angler pressure and no pike. Yet many of the streams with no angler pressure and no pike show the same declines in coho and or sockeye returns as those with one or both of the other factors.

    Studies may be cited to show a lot of things. Computer models can extrapolate how many fish enter streams that have never been surveyed or counted... actual numbers of salmon bound to certain streams can be estimated using computer models that are built from existing data, no matter how sketchy or complete that data is. Just like computer models of global warming show that many coastal regions are now under many feet of water from polar ice cap melting.

    Lets give these measures to get more fish back into the streams they come from a try. Measure the returns through this 3 year cycle, and hopefully the next as well, and lets see what the results are. If commercial interception plays little to no role, then remote streams with little fishing pressure and good habitat conditions will see no stronger returns. If it does play a significant role, than we should see the results most clearly in the remote streams with no pike and good habitat. Lets apply the scientific method to management... the scientific method doesn't work without experimentation.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Alexander Creek
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    Good response willphish4food, I live on Alexander Creek and IMHO it is a variety of reasons. Over fishing plays the biggest part in Alexander Creek's King crash without doubt. When it comes to our Silver run I lean towards the Drift net and Gill net industry for the biggest reason. Maybe not all of the reason but a big part of it anyway. When they have openings there are no fish, or if any they are little with net marks. We haven't had a good run in three or four years here on the Alexander so we will see if this is the reason or not. Another reason can also be attributed to the Seals. I can go down to the mouth of the Su and count 300 seals without any problem in August. It is common now to see 30 seals on a sand bar 20 miles up the Su now a days. Nerka, this over escapement you talk about is intriguing also. My question to you is how did the rivers manage themselves when there where no people to manage them? Ah that's right, Mother Nature did it's own thing! Don't mean to pick on you Nerka, as I blame sports fishing for just as much as I would Commercial fishing in many areas. The overfishing and cheating here on this creek by Americans and Europeans is especially to blame for our King crash. Since Alexander Creek has been closed to Kings all Lodges have closed and there has been no pressure on the creek in 6 years. The Kings are coming back.

  7. #7
    Member hoose35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Soldotna, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    2,890

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Good response willphish4food, I live on Alexander Creek and IMHO it is a variety of reasons. Over fishing plays the biggest part in Alexander Creek's King crash without doubt. When it comes to our Silver run I lean towards the Drift net and Gill net industry for the biggest reason. Maybe not all of the reason but a big part of it anyway. When they have openings there are no fish, or if any they are little with net marks. We haven't had a good run in three or four years here on the Alexander so we will see if this is the reason or not. Another reason can also be attributed to the Seals. I can go down to the mouth of the Su and count 300 seals without any problem in August. It is common now to see 30 seals on a sand bar 20 miles up the Su now a days. Nerka, this over escapement you talk about is intriguing also. My question to you is how did the rivers manage themselves when there where no people to manage them? Ah that's right, Mother Nature did it's own thing! Don't mean to pick on you Nerka, as I blame sports fishing for just as much as I would Commercial fishing in many areas. The overfishing and cheating here on this creek by Americans and Europeans is especially to blame for our King crash. Since Alexander Creek has been closed to Kings all Lodges have closed and there has been no pressure on the creek in 6 years. The Kings are coming back.
    I am willing to bet the last time Alexander creek had a good run, the commercial guys fished that year, and the time before, and the time before. I know that drift fleet intercepts some fish headed for valley streams, but if they are intercepting so many that they are preventing good runs of fish then that would mean there hasn't been a good run up there in the last 30 plus years.

    Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

  8. #8
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Central Kenai Peninsula
    Posts
    4,886

    Default

    [QUOTE=alexander;1366662]Nerka, this over escapement you talk about is intriguing also. My question to you is how did the rivers manage themselves when there where no people to manage them? Ah that's right, Mother Nature did it's own thing! QUOTE]

    Whenever I hear this I always chuckle.
    Have you ever talked to people who were involved in these fisheries before statehood or where you here yourself before statehood?
    When mother nature ran things the runs would boom and bust.
    You had years of low returns like you are facing now followed by building runs until there was a super glut of fish and then another crash.
    Do people really wish things would go back to the boom and bust cycles? I don't know how many years it takes for the crash portion of the cycle to return to the better fishing part of the cycle. But, I can't help but wonder if we went back to ma nature doing her own thing how long would it take for the general public to outcry that ADF&G must do something to stabilize the cycles just like they try to do now?
    Just curiosity on my part.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,959

    Default

    alexander, I think you had a very good silver year last year

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Alexander Creek
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    [QUOTE=kasilofchrisn;1366682]
    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Nerka, this over escapement you talk about is intriguing also. My question to you is how did the rivers manage themselves when there where no people to manage them? Ah that's right, Mother Nature did it's own thing! QUOTE]

    Whenever I hear this I always chuckle.
    Have you ever talked to people who were involved in these fisheries before statehood or where you here yourself before statehood?
    When mother nature ran things the runs would boom and bust.
    You had years of low returns like you are facing now followed by building runs until there was a super glut of fish and then another crash.
    Do people really wish things would go back to the boom and bust cycles? I don't know how many years it takes for the crash portion of the cycle to return to the better fishing part of the cycle. But, I can't help but wonder if we went back to ma nature doing her own thing how long would it take for the general public to outcry that ADF&G must do something to stabilize the cycles just like they try to do now?
    Just curiosity on my part.
    Cant tell you how long it takes for mother nature but I can tell you how long it takes when man manages it. When left to man to over fish Alexander Creek it was closed for around ten years before it came back. This time it has been seven years so far.

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Alexander Creek
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    alexander, I think you had a very good silver year last year
    MGH55, I don't know where you get my stats from but I caught exactly zero Slivers. They didn't show up for the longest time and I ended up giving up on them. I did run down to the mouth of the Su and see that there were hundreds of Seals intercepting what you didn't catch so it isn't all your fault! This year though will be better and I will save some Silver's for you this time!

  12. #12

    Default

    Well I guess the Mat-Su people should be proud. It looks like their Mat-Su borough paid reps collaborated with their KRSA/AFA anti-setnet/commercial fishing allies as well as several members of the board including the chairman, and succeeded in royally screwing the UCI commercial fisheries in the name of King and Coho conservation. Now they're chipping away at the rights of the private anglers.

    If KP residents/governments don't get involved, our only access to our fish will be through a dipnet or a guide boat.

    This is an incredibly political process, and I expected that.

    I did NOT expect it to be so obviously rigged, dishonest, and sleazy. No disrespect to many of the good people and board members caught up in the process. It is COMPLETELY and totally broken.

    Thanks KRSA.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    There was a response in the Daily News article comments saying habitat is to blame for poor coho runs and anyone who believes otherwise is stupid. Trying to manage known sources of mortality is stupid and ignorant. There's some huge holes in that statement and worldview. Some systems in the Valley have pike, and little angler pressure. Some have very high angler pressure and no pike. Some have pike and high angler pressure. Many have no angler pressure and no pike. Yet many of the streams with no angler pressure and no pike show the same declines in coho and or sockeye returns as those with one or both of the other factors.

    Studies may be cited to show a lot of things. Computer models can extrapolate how many fish enter streams that have never been surveyed or counted... actual numbers of salmon bound to certain streams can be estimated using computer models that are built from existing data, no matter how sketchy or complete that data is. Just like computer models of global warming show that many coastal regions are now under many feet of water from polar ice cap melting.

    Lets give these measures to get more fish back into the streams they come from a try. Measure the returns through this 3 year cycle, and hopefully the next as well, and lets see what the results are. If commercial interception plays little to no role, then remote streams with little fishing pressure and good habitat conditions will see no stronger returns. If it does play a significant role, than we should see the results most clearly in the remote streams with no pike and good habitat. Lets apply the scientific method to management... the scientific method doesn't work without experimentation.
    The coho returns are not poor first of all. They are down one year but last year was a good coho return - ADF&G data supports that and of course coho are not any stock of yield concern. ADF&G data indicate over 100 lakes have pike and in those lakes that have coho --production has been seriously decreased. I think most people know that angler pressure on some systems cannot be sustained by those systems. They were weekend only fisheries in the 80's. So that cannot be fixed by putting 10% more coho into them.

    Relative to sockeye there is no decline long term in lakes without pike. Just not a true statement. There is variability but 4 sockeye lakes that use to produces sockeye no longer have any spawning fish because of pike. In an additional lake (Shell Lake) a combination of pike and disease has taken a system that produced over 100,000 sockeye to a handful - less than a dozen fish have returned. So willphis4fiood - the drift fleet is not the significant issue for valley salmon.

    Total estimates of fish entering the Susitna have been made by sonar, weir counts, and mark/recapture. They show good numbers of coho and sockeye entering the system. Yields of sockeye are down but escapements have been in the SEG goals. The stock of concern status for sockeye is based on pike infested lakes. No amount of fishing time decrease can make those lakes come back if no fish are produced from them.

    Lets give the half ass measure a try when we know it is not the problem and apply the scientific method - what a joke. No science was used to get to this decision and one does not do experimentation with people's lives without good cause. This is a totally irresponsible statement and shows the reasons some call the valley folks misguided and selfish. They will take from others to satisfy their own greed. It is not about the resource. If it was they would be working hard to do something productive on pike and habitat in their own backyard.

    Alexander the ADF&G spent tens of thousands of dollars to remove or reduce pike numbers. They know the cause in that creek and are working on it. It is not fishing. Just for the record it takes days to get to Alexander Creek from the drift fleet fishing area. No way can one say if they have openings there are no fish. Just not correct.

    Relative to overescapement we have been over this. It is about yield. If you want to have high average yields you do not put large numbers of fish into the system which causes increased mortality. Without fishing systems did have boom and bust cycles - why would that be. Because in some years large escapements crashed the system and brought poorer returns. It is called density dependent mortality and is well documented for all salmon species. There is no scientific debate on reduced yield from large escapements. Only those who want to confuse a lay board keep bringing this up and the Chairman's stupid comment just speaks volumes to that. ADF&G has done a terrible job of education here.

  14. #14
    Member cormit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Tustumena Lake Road
    Posts
    355

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Well I guess the Mat-Su people should be proud. It looks like their Mat-Su borough paid reps collaborated with their KRSA/AFA anti-setnet/commercial fishing allies as well as several members of the board including the chairman, and succeeded in royally screwing the UCI commercial fisheries in the name of King and Coho conservation. Now they're chipping away at the rights of the private anglers.

    If KP residents/governments don't get involved, our only access to our fish will be through a dipnet or a guide boat.

    This is an incredibly political process, and I expected that.

    I did NOT expect it to be so obviously rigged, dishonest, and sleazy. No disrespect to many of the good people and board members caught up in the process. It is COMPLETELY and totally broken.

    Thanks KRSA.
    The poor salmon production in the Valley will not be improved by this rearranging of the drift fleet. I heard a Susitna lodge owner testify to the board in the early 80's ...... asking the board to do something about the high powered jet boats that were trashing the shallow spawning beds near his lodge. He told of salmon eggs dripping from the spruce trees ...... having been sprayed there by jet boats. No restrictions came. The valley has a history of being unwilling to spend the money or effort to improve spawning habitat. The Valley folks were "shocked" to find out this summer that they had a couple of hundred culverts deemed un-passable by salmon. They fixed a handful ..... then this fall .... voted down a request for money to fix more. It is much easier to take more fish from downstream users. The thing is ..... even if more fish make it back to the Valley ..... the same miserable spawning habitat awaits them.

  15. #15
    Member Hunt&FishAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Valley trash
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    MGH55, I don't know where you get my stats from but I caught exactly zero Slivers. They didn't show up for the longest time and I ended up giving up on them. I did run down to the mouth of the Su and see that there were hundreds of Seals intercepting what you didn't catch so it isn't all your fault! This year though will be better and I will save some Silver's for you this time!

    They might have been feasting on late chums..... Caswell, sheep, goose..... Silvers were almost non existent in those three last year. Worst silver run in years.



    Release Lake Trout

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,959

    Default

    If you want to do some real good you could use a 22-250 and save the run! Best of luck!
    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    MGH55, I don't know where you get my stats from but I caught exactly zero Slivers. They didn't show up for the longest time and I ended up giving up on them. I did run down to the mouth of the Su and see that there were hundreds of Seals intercepting what you didn't catch so it isn't all your fault! This year though will be better and I will save some Silver's for you this time!

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •