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Thread: Cold and my SBH, .44.

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    Default Cold and my SBH, .44.

    I never get as good a group with 296 when cold so I started fooling with it. Deer season here is not cold enough to worry about it so I never did the work. I tried magnum primers but they just enlarged groups so I upped the powder charge 1/2 gr to 1 gr and it works but I was still not happy.
    I picked the RD 265 gr to play with. In the summer, this boolit will do 3/4" at 50 yards and 1-1/4" at 100 with 22 gr of 296.
    I used 22.5 gr of 296 for the coldwinter Felix.jpg
    Fed 150 primer
    Felix lube, but I figured the lube is getting too hard. I made a new batch and cut the beeswax down. I mixed the oils and stirred the right amount of time before adding Ivory soap. For some reason when I worked in all the soap I must have used too much. All of a sudden the oils jelled, looked like Vaseline and I had some flakes of soap left.
    I put it into the melted beeswax and added the lanolin, stirred for a while and poured it into plastic food trays. Most soap stayed in the pan and any in the lube settled out in the second tray.
    It came out perfect and I put the trays in the freezer to break the lube out but it never got real hard, still flexible and sticky.
    Went down and shot just enough to where I could not feel my fingers or stop the shivering. This is what I got off the bench at 50 yards.
    Left target has two groups with summer Felix, center had the first shot low at lube change and the right target shows my shivering.
    I am close to summer groups.

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    How cold is cold?
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    It was two below zero this morning. Sure not what you fellas get but even that has affected the powder.
    Seems groups start to open about 30*.

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    I've had the same experience in the 45 Colt with 296 and 345 BTB WLN. Loads that do 2" in 45-50į temps only do 2Ĺ to 3" when below freezing. I've tried both WLPs and CCI-350s, but doesn't seem to make a difference. Could it be just a lack of feeling throwing off trigger squeeze?

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    H110/W296 is a poor powder for cold, starts getting inconsistent around 30f and by 10f or so I get some hang fire. H110/W296 just is not a good winter powder, I like LilGun as it doesnít seem to care how cold but there are other good powders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    H110/W296 is a poor powder for cold, starts getting inconsistent around 30f and by 10f or so I get some hang fire. H110/W296 just is not a good winter powder, I like LilGun as it doesnít seem to care how cold but there are other good powders.
    VV-N110 performs well in the cold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrshooter View Post
    It was two below zero this morning. Sure not what you fellas get but even that has affected the powder.
    Seems groups start to open about 30*.
    8 above this morning in downtown fairbanks!

    it,s been 20-40 above t he last 2 weeks. Normally it's 20-40 below!

    after reading about issues with 110/296 below freezing I worked up a lil'gun load for my 454. Haven't tried n110 yet.

    thanks for the update.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Quote Originally Posted by swmn View Post
    What Snyd and ADFields said already. H-110 and Win296 samey-same.
    And while it has been a long known fact that H-110 and W-296 are identical powders under different labels, apparently we can now add Alliant Power Pro 300-MP as well. Reportedly, it's exactly the same stuff from the same plant (St. Marks Powder) in Florida.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    I'll never be the handgun shot that the OP is; however, I've always used mag. primers with 296. Ignition being more important to me than accuracy. Thanks to all for the reminder about using 296, etc. in the cold.

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    I am afraid of Lil'gun but never tried it in the cold. I was testing it in a few guns and the barrel heat was extreme enough that after 12 shots I would not touch the barrel. Freedom will not warranty a gun shot with it. It erodes the barrel. The powder has no buffer coating and was made for the .410.
    4227 is accurate but once the barrel warms in the .44, pressure will rise and velocity will increase with each shot. The powder works in other calibers so I can't explain it.
    But to the temperatures I have worked in, the mag primer has always shot worse then a standard in the .44.
    I ONLY go to the Fed 155 with the .475 and up.
    We need to look at H110 and 296. Back then, they were made on the same line but Hodgdon got one burn rate batch and WW got another. Just a 1/2 gr difference with H110 on the slow side---SAME POWDER. Today Hodgdon has both under two labels but I still have a doubt they are the same burn rate so I will always buy 296.
    Long ago, H110 would NOT shoot from our SBH's, S&W 29's or the SRH but it was the only powder that made the RH shoot. The RH HATED 296.
    Am I stupid? I guess because I never explained it.

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    Yea the LilGun myth pops up every now and then. Iíve burned a LOT of it, a heck on a lot of it now seven years in burning 6 to 8lbs a year of it. It does no more or less damage or cutting than H110/W296 at the same pressures, no need to fear it any more than 296. Use it, donít use it . . . Matters not a bit to me but the myth is a myth. Nobody has been able to repeat FAís results and there are a lot of folks burning LilGun by the keg out there. Run those pressures with any powder and they will all cut the topstraps and erode bores very similarly.
     
    For at least 10 years now H110 and W296 are the exact same powder, there is no difference at all other than the label on the bottle . . . Data is all 100% identical and I even have an email from them saying it is 100% the same stuff even with the same lot/batch numbers.
     
    BTW H110/W296 and most similar powders also come from the little shotgun world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    And while it has been a long known fact that H-110 and W-296 are identical powders under different labels, apparently we can now add Alliant Power Pro 300-MP as well. Reportedly, it's exactly the same stuff from the same plant (St. Marks Powder) in Florida.
    Who's report? Everything I've seen on loading notes for 300-MP shows it to be slower than 110/296 by a noticeable amount. Example:
    480 Ruger with 400 gr. JSP- 20.5 gr. H110 = 1258 fps, 24.2 gr. 300-MP = 1370 fps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    And while it has been a long known fact that H-110 and W-296 are identical powders under different labels, apparently we can now add Alliant Power Pro 300-MP as well. Reportedly, it's exactly the same stuff from the same plant (St. Marks Powder) in Florida.
    Who's report?
    There's a piece about it in the December issue of Guns & Ammo:
    "W296, H110 and Alliant's Power Pro 300-MP are identical spherical magnum revolver propellents made at the same facility."
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    ("W296, H110 and Alliant's Power Pro 300-MP are identical spherical magnum revolver propellents made at the same facility.")
    True, but the coating is different to slow the burn rate.
    So many powders are exactly the same with only a change in shape or coating to change burn rates.
    Lil'gun does burn hotter, sorry. Never have I had so much barrel heat, felt like I ran 100 rounds full auto. The ability of the steel to radiate off that much heat is compromised too fast. Shoot a few shots slow and you will NOT see it. Same as 4227 in the .44, shoot slow, keep the gun cool and it shoots great. 4227 will NOT heat the gun, it just gains velocity and pressure when the gun warms.
    Every powder burns at a temperature over the melting point of steel but speed and metal thickness tempers it. Yet super heat in one spot will eat steel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrshooter View Post
    Lil'gun does burn hotter, sorry. Never have I had so much barrel heat, felt like I ran 100 rounds full auto. The ability of the steel to radiate off that much heat is compromised too fast. Shoot a few shots slow and you will NOT see it. Same as 4227 in the .44, shoot slow, keep the gun cool and it shoots great. 4227 will NOT heat the gun, it just gains velocity and pressure when the gun warms.
    Every powder burns at a temperature over the melting point of steel but speed and metal thickness tempers it. Yet super heat in one spot will eat steel.
    Heat and pressure are tightly linked inside a gun, you have one you have the other in direct proportion. What you describe defies physics and my experience, my guns get every bit as hot with H110, 4227, or LilGun when working at about the same pressures.
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    Heat and pressure are not linked. Lil'gun actually has less pressure to give a higher velocity but heat is higher. Lil'gun has almost no coating on it.

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    A quote;
    We have seen numerous barrels damaged by using Lil Gun. According to customers, some had as few as 30 rounds using Lil Gun through them, some had several hundred. Before we figured out what was happening one customer had sent his gun in for a new barrel. Then 600 rounds later it came back for another new barrel.

    A couple years ago we did a test with a M83, .357 Mag. using Hornady 180 gr. bullets. We loaded 50 rds. of three different loads. One was a heavy H-110 load and the other two both used Lil Gun in different quantities.

    We fired the H-110 loads first, then cut off the threaded end of the barrel. Rethreaded the barrel and shot one of the Lil Gun loads then rethreaded the barrel and shot the last Lil Gun load.

    We found even the light load of Lil Gun caused the gun to get extremely hot. The heavy Lil Gun load had the gun so hot the only place we could touch the gun was on the grips and they were very hot.

    Under magnification the surface appeared to have heated to a point of flowing using the Lil Gun loads and the heavy load was worse than the light load. This is probably due to Lil Gun having about 10% more nitro glycerin in it than H-110.

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    It is not a myth, and FA's "results" actually first came to them from owners of their guns. I know because I am one of them. They were not aware of the problem until they started seeing guns with ruined forcing cones with one common issue...Lil Gun! Two barrels ruined with Lil Gun in a 454 for me. Fact, not myth. I too say use it or not if you want...do difference to me.

    BTW that same gun has fired several thousand rounds since the last re-barrel with powders other than Lil Gun and it still looks like new.

    To the OP..Jim are you saying that your accuracy in the cold weather improved with softer lube? That is an interesting find. I have like others seen H110 accuracy go out the window in cold weather but was always using commercial cast bullets with the usual hard lube. For that reason I had gone to 4227 in my 454's. Now you have given me something else to try.

    Dan

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    Do what you want but I and many others have been testing this for years now and to say LilGun is any worse for a gun than H110 is a myth. Fully aware of FAís tests and canít explain them but the fact that noone has been able to get those results makes them anomalous . . . likley something with the batch of steel.
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