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Thread: QUESTION............AR-15 "PISTOL" receivers

  1. #1

    Default QUESTION............AR-15 "PISTOL" receivers

    Sometime back I bought a bunch of top quality stripped "NEW" lower receivers for AR-15 builds & for investment. I just filled out the 4473 and paid.

    Should I have declared that they were for "PISTOL" builds at that time.....or am I allowed to build a RIFLE or a PISTOL on the "NEW" stripped lowers.....???

    Thank You,

  2. #2
    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    What were they listed as on the 4473?
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you can’t tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod in Wasilla View Post
    What were they listed as on the 4473?
    that is the question, how is it listed on the 4473. if it listed as a rifle it's a RIFLE!

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    Typically the dealer will list stripped receivers as "receiver" on the 4473, as they are neither pistol or rifle until they are assembled as such.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    I have "NO" idea........and that is the point of this question. I hope that as they were neither, they were declared to the "Over'Lords" as neither.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rod in Wasilla View Post
    What were they listed as on the 4473?

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    I have "NO" idea........and that is the point of this question. I hope that as they were neither, they were declared to the "Over'Lords" as neither.
    Like Doug said, on the 4473 there are three options for box 18 type of firearm, handgun, long gun and OTHER . . . Striped lowers get listed as “other” and write “receiver” in the description part of section D.
     
    Make of them whatever non NFA firearms you wish.
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    If I am not mistaken regardless if you did the 4473 on the lower it has to be either stamped or engraved for a AR pistol once you put the shorty upper on it.

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    Member gunbugs's Avatar
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    Engraving is not required for a pistol. Only for SBR's and other NFA weapons.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    I agree with Andy and Doug, and will add that in this case, it is my OPINION that what the DEALER put in box 18 is irrelivent. Much like a TC Encore your receiver is "unisex" and can now be born as a boy or girl.... so long as whatever you build meets the applicable regulations, either titlle 1 or NFA. heck, if you have a bunch of them and can spare some time and $200, you should consider builsing an SBR or something fun!

    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Like Doug said, on the 4473 there are three options for box 18 type of firearm, handgun, long gun and OTHER . . . Striped lowers get listed as “other” and write “receiver” in the description part of section D.
     
    Make of them whatever non NFA firearms you wish.
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alangaq View Post
    ... what the DEALER put in box 18 is irrelivent (sic)...
    True. But, it would be substantially easier to prove compliance with the law when the paper trail is correct.

    My next comment is about 'constructive possession' and what kinds of parts would be in close proximity before, during, and after the build. Note: if you have the parts to build a short barrel rifle, you HAVE a short barrel rifle. So you need to take some extra precautions if you have both a short barrel for your pistol build and a rifle stock in your possession.
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you can’t tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

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    The ATF states that you can build a stripped lower into a pistol or rifle. Once it has a buttstock attached (rifle) it can not be made into a pistol. If you make a pistol then decide to turn it into a rifle that's ok but it can't be returned to a pistol configuration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak-pilot View Post
    The ATF states that you can build a stripped lower into a pistol or rifle. Once it has a buttstock attached (rifle) it can not be made into a pistol. If you make a pistol then decide to turn it into a rifle that's ok but it can't be returned to a pistol configuration.
    And how would they know? I'm mostly serious about that. For the record, this is hypothetical only. Let's pretend I have a pistol AR. Either purchased or built by me, doesn't matter. Pretend I have a complete pistol AR with a 9" barrel. One day, I get the itch and I build or buy a standard 16" barreled AR rifle. Both are 100% legal. Then out of curiosity, fun, idiocy, whatever you want to call it, I pull the buffer and stock off the rifle and stick it on the pistol. In essence we've created a short barreled rifle from a pistol. Then after finishing whatever Tacticool fantasy we have about building clearing and whatever, I want to be legal, but for some reason I just swap the uppers. Now I'm sitting there with a pistol lower that has been built into a rifle. A day later I think, that's not right I should do it right. I sit down, break then all down and put them all back the way they were originally. The pistol is back to correct and so is the rifle.

    Who knows? According to the legal definition, I've just built a rifle from a pistol and then returned it to a pistol. Who knows? Unless I get caught with a SBR and no tax stamp, there is no way to know.

    I think the more accurate explanation is, you can do whatever you want, but if you have a barreled upper that is under 16" on a rifle lower with a butt stock, you better have the tax stamp and be legal. You can build a rifle out of a pistol lower, but you still can't have a short barrel on it even if it is a pistol lower unless you have the stamp. You can revert the pistol back to being a pistol as long as you don't have a vertical fore grip on it and the buffer is a pistol buffer.

    The ATF isn't concerned with the current condition of the lower (rifle or pistol) unless it has features that violate NFA rules for either. What matters is how is was first built. Which is why the Serbu Super shorty is legal and only takes a $5 stamp. It was built from the beginning to be a pistol. You can put a longer barrel and a butt stock on it, but it was originally built to be a pistol. What you can't do is take a receiver that was built to be a rifle and convert it to a pistol without an SBR stamp. You can't take an existing shotgun and chop the barrel down to less than 18". etc.

  13. #13

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    Given the original justification for Class III firearms restrictions, today with "Slide'Fire & Bump'Fire" and a half dozen other manufacture built firearms.........nearly all of the original "Intent" has been circumvented. You CAN"T turn a rifle into a Pistol, and why bother, if you can buy one that is legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Given the original justification for Class III firearms restrictions, today with "Slide'Fire & Bump'Fire" and a half dozen other manufacture built firearms.........nearly all of the original "Intent" has been circumvented. You CAN"T turn a rifle into a Pistol, and why bother, if you can buy one that is legal.
    And for me, I say good. The original intent was wrong to begin with and has done little or nothing to stop bad guys from doing bad things. In fact, in my personal opinion, I would like to see suppressors removed from the NFA status completely. but that's probably not gonna happen.

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    Even suppressors have been circumvented with threaded adapters for oil filter..............http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-28-x-3-4...item3cd9bfd5a2


    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    And for me, I say good. The original intent was wrong to begin with and has done little or nothing to stop bad guys from doing bad things. In fact, in my personal opinion, I would like to see suppressors removed from the NFA status completely. but that's probably not gonna happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Even suppressors have been circumvented with threaded adapters for oil filter..............http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-28-x-3-4...item3cd9bfd5a2
    Technically, that's illegal to use as a suppressor. The adapter is not, but if you shoot with it, illegal. To me circumventing would be doing something 100% legally but in a way that effectively negates the law. There is a company that sells something similar, but they do it legally. The adapter is the "suppressor" and is an NFA item. It's called the "Econo-Can." They are 100% legal, but the adapter itself is the serial numbered piece.

    Circumventing is the slide-fire like you said. Or, the various non-pistol grips for AR's that are effectively pistol grips for sale in CA. Or selling a 30-round mag in pieces to a state where the magazine is "illegal" but because repair kits aren't, it's legal.

    I just don't see the "criminal barrier" to making a suppressor an NFA item. I can see a LOT of valid safety and peaceful benefits to suppressors. If a criminal has decided to break the law by murdering someone with a gun, do you really think they will bother with the 6-9 mo wait, the $200 stamp, and the $1000 price tag? Or will they go down to Home Depot and home build a $25 one time use deal? For that matter, same applies to this thread. Why is an SBR even an issue? Why does having a barrel shorter than 16" even matter? Etc, etc.

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    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak-pilot View Post
    The ATF states that you can build a stripped lower into a pistol or rifle. Once it has a buttstock attached (rifle) it can not be made into a pistol. If you make a pistol then decide to turn it into a rifle that's ok but it can't be returned to a pistol configuration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    ...What you can't do is take a receiver that was built to be a rifle and convert it to a pistol without an SBR stamp. ...
    This is the crux of the matter. If I buy an off-the-shelf AR rifle, I can't legally convert it into a pistol - because that lower was originally configured as a rifle. But, if I buy a new, never assembled lower, I could use it to construct either a rifle or a pistol. And if I FIRST construct a pistol with it, I can then legally convert it to a rifle, and then back to a pistol whenever I want. However, if I FIRST configure that same lower as a rifle, it is no longer legal to convert it to a pistol without getting an SBR stamp. ... Yeah, it's stupid. But that's the current state of our firearm regulations.

    And here's the ATF letter that addresses this exact senario. The second to last paragraph states:

    Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
    Now then, as to how the ATF would find out, or what they would do if they did... Well, I'll leave that discussion to others. Suffice it to say, if you're looking at converting, it's easy to stay legal. Just build the pistol first.
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you can’t tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

  18. #18

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    I have a TC receiver box in front of me now and it has pistol on the box. If they are unisex why is mine marked pistol?

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    But be careful not to have the pistol parts AND the rifle parts in your home without them being mounted to a pistol lower AND a rifle lower. In other words, do it right. You buy a never built lower. Buy all the parts and build it to a pistol. Then, you go buy the rifle upper. Finally you pick up the buffer and stock. You have just entered into "intent to build" territory. Even if you never intend to install the stock on the pistol, the fact that you have it in the home along with the pistol means you "intend to" according to the ATF. Which is why you have 2 lowers if you plan to go that route. One lower with all the pistol parts installed and the second before you start buying the rifle parts. Then install the stock and rifle buffer on the spare lower immediately.

    Of course that assumes the local LEO's would find out somehow, but if you want to be legal be sure you aren't sitting there with a pistol AR and all the parts to make a rifle without a second lower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cast Iron View Post
    I have a TC receiver box in front of me now and it has pistol on the box. If they are unisex why is mine marked pistol?
    They aren't unisex. That was built as a pistol first. That way it can be made a pistol or a rifle. My point was, how would the ATF even know how you built the firearm in the first place.

    So another scenario, let's say I buy a fresh stripped lower and build it into a rifle. Then later I sell off all the rifle parts and re-build it into a pistol. How is ATF going to know which I did first? They can't.

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