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Thread: Question about latest firearms CONTROL effort Jan. 2014

  1. #1

    Default Question about latest firearms CONTROL effort Jan. 2014

    PLEASE.......DO NOT turn this thread into a general RANT......Please.

    Is there any CLEAR guidelines on what medications or diagnosis would cause this flag to raise......???
    OR any information about "ONLY" this specific effort......

    What Mental Health issues.......??? Where is the "Do NOT cross line" on mental health......??? Mild depression in the winter months....??? alcoholism....??? Post traumatic Stress disorder......??? How will one prove that they are cured......???

    Again....PLEASE keep this civilized and only on this exact change.

    THANK YOU

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    Have you ever read the book: "CATCH 22" or seen the movie: "CATCH 22"...........???

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    Member Libertine's Avatar
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    Unintended Consequences by John Ross. Required reading for people for cherish liberty.

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    Very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
    Unintended Consequences by John Ross. Required reading for people for cherish liberty.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Interesting Will.
    They say he is a “danger to himself and others” to get him locked up but then decide (because they can’t force medicate him) that their “treatment” won’t make him better so they discharge him?
     
    So ether he never was a “danger to himself and others” at all and they held him without cause.
    Or he is a “danger to himself and others” and they knowingly booted him out to do whatever anyway.
    Ether way it doesn’t say much for the mental health system, doctors, and courts!!
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    Just read the article, pretty scary stuff. What this says is, essentially, you can be locked up for having religious beliefs. One of the keys, I think, to this story is that he is Pentecostal. I grew up in a Pentecostal church. I know LOTS of people who hear Christ's voice. It is very common to hear one person speak in Tongues, and then hear another person, usually one of the oldest people in the congregation, speak the same message in English-Christ speaking to his people. It is part and parcel of their faith. They basically locked this guy up for being Pentecostal. I guess the Baptists are next and then the Catholics. I also find it odd that they declared that only religious beliefs held since childhood were rational. Soooo, that means no one can ever have a conversion of faith as an adult? Heck, some Protestant faiths only allow conversion (Baptism) by adults.

    Another thing I find disconcerting in this story is the two bone heads on the State Supreme Court who said they were not supposed to re-weigh evidence....ummm yes dumbass that is what an appeals court is for. You decide if the evidence used should have been admissible in the first place. Something tells me that the original framers didn't intend on courts using religious faith against a man on trial.

    I know this is a gun forum, but I find the issues of Religious liberty here to be far more disconcerting that any limitation of a man's right to buy a gun. I mean, the basis of this story is that the guy's new found religious experience "creeped out" some people and that was used as a basis to imprison and deny civil rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    PLEASE.......DO NOT turn this thread into a general RANT......Please.

    Is there any CLEAR guidelines on what medications or diagnosis would cause this flag to raise......???
    OR any information about "ONLY" this specific effort......

    What Mental Health issues.......??? Where is the "Do NOT cross line" on mental health......??? Mild depression in the winter months....??? alcoholism....??? Post traumatic Stress disorder......??? How will one prove that they are cured......???

    Again....PLEASE keep this civilized and only on this exact change.

    THANK YOU
    Sorry AGL I guess I didn't address your question. I hope I wasn't ranting. It would appear from this article that the only guideline is the professional opinion of whatever expert testimony (i.e mental health professional) you can muster to your aid. In this case, the lower court took the professional opinion of a psychiatrist (acceptable given that judges aren't psychiatrists) but I bet a good defense layer might have found another psychiatrist who was of the same faith, or at least familiar with it to testify on the accused's behalf.

    That is a lot of a discretion the courts are giving one man.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    He got his first and second rights back and hopefully he won't take them from someone else. It does show how easy it would be for government to remove everyones second amendment rights by having a judge just say you are nuts. Answer there is a god or there is no god and you could be locked up by the judge.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Where the line is 'today' is less important than where the line will be 'tomorrow'.

    You want to own a gun?

    Yeah.

    Well, you don't need one. Guns are objects designed solely for the purpose of killing things.

    But, I'm not planning on killing anything.

    Regardless, only crazy people want to own objects designed to kill things. And since you just admitted that you want a gun, well... you must be crazy. I'm noting in your file that you are a danger to yourself and to others. Therefore, you are now prohibited from owning a gun.


    This is where it's headed- preventative prohibition. Deny everybody because of the possibility that somebody, somewhere may get hurt if anybody, anywhere has access to firearms. And all the while keep telling us that it's for our own good.
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you can’t tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FL2AK-Old Town View Post
    Just read the article, pretty scary stuff. What this says is, essentially, you can be locked up for having religious beliefs. One of the keys, I think, to this story is that he is Pentecostal. I grew up in a Pentecostal church. I know LOTS of people who hear Christ's voice. It is very common to hear one person speak in Tongues, and then hear another person, usually one of the oldest people in the congregation, speak the same message in English-Christ speaking to his people. It is part and parcel of their faith......

    ......... I mean, the basis of this story is that the guy's new found religious experience "creeped out" some people and that was used as a basis to imprison and deny civil rights.
    Although I find the "speaking in tongues" and other such "movements" as ridiculous grandstanding, I do recognize them as legitimate religious protocol, for lack of a better word.

    What this man experienced was not a message from Jesus, it was mental derangement. He needs observation and assistance, for his sake and that of those around him. That is just my opinion, no offense meant to you FL2, or other religious folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod in Wasilla View Post
    Where the line is 'today' is less important than where the line will be 'tomorrow'.

    You want to own a gun?

    Yeah.

    Well, you don't need one. Guns are objects designed solely for the purpose of killing things.

    But, I'm not planning on killing anything.

    Regardless, only crazy people want to own objects designed to kill things. And since you just admitted that you want a gun, well... you must be crazy. I'm noting in your file that you are a danger to yourself and to others. Therefore, you are now prohibited from owning a gun.


    This is where it's headed- preventative prohibition. Deny everybody because of the possibility that somebody, somewhere may get hurt if anybody, anywhere has access to firearms. And all the while keep telling us that it's for our own good.


    they did the same with 3 wheelers.
    Semper Fi!

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    The anti-gun crowd will continue to use whatever means they think are able to further their goals. They are very good at taking almost any issue and wrapping it up in a nice package that points to disarming the public as the best solution. There is a large percentage of the population in Amerika now who live in urbanized settings and have had absolutely no exposure to firearms outside of criminal activity. Because they only are able to identify firearms with violence against their fellow man, its impossible for them to understand that for the rural minority it is a tool way before it is a weapon. It is that perception that makes it very easy for the anti-gun crowd to continually create one red herring after another as to why nobody should be allowed to own a firearm aside from the friendly local law enforcement professionals. It doesn't matter if the argument is mental health, the safety of children, or any number of other ginned up BS reasons.

    Anyone here ever heard of the NY SAFE act? Passed in the dead of night under an obscure proceedural move? What a mess! Part of it says that while you can own a 10 round magazine, its illegal for you to load it with more than 7 rounds. That portion of the (UN)SAFE Act was just struck down by a federal judge in Buffalo as an unconstitutional infringement. What did the district attorneys for Syracuse and Rochester say about the ruling? That it didn't apply because it is a state law and a federal judge can't rule on it. They went on to say the ruling has no force in law and that they would continue to prosecute offenders found in violation of the 7 round limit.

    Now, who is the dangerous mental case? The guy who loads 10 rounds into his 10 round magazine because he heard a federal judge said it was his constitutionally protected right to do so, or the DA who says a federal judge has no power and they are going to do what they want anyways?

  14. #14

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    Let us get back on track...........What exactly......as in "EXACTLY" at this point and time...........is the list of mental medical conditions which would be grounds for the arresting of one's firearms, and/or mental conditions that would deny buying or owning a firearm........???

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkwarthog View Post
    What this man experienced was not a message from Jesus, it was mental derangement.
    You can't know that anymore than I can know it. I'm just more inclined to accept the former condition, having witnessed it elsewhere. (I'm also open to the possibility of the latter condition being correct, but not based on one or two men's opinion, one of which (the judge) being neither a psychologist nor an expert in religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkwarthog View Post
    That is just my opinion, no offense meant to you FL2, or other religious folks.
    No problem. I exposed myself to it, and I expected it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Let us get back on track...........What exactly......as in "EXACTLY" at this point and time...........is the list of mental medical conditions which would be grounds for the arresting of one's firearms, and/or mental conditions that would deny buying or owning a firearm........???
    I don't think there is a list. Doesn't the question on the 4473 say something like "...ever been adjudicated mentally incompetent..." Possibly, anything that a court can use to declare you mentally incompetent. Could be on that list, if such a list existed.

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    Member dkwarthog's Avatar
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    I dont want to muck up AGL's thread, because I think he is asking a great question. It is a question that needs to be answered by society, and there are a lot of anti gun people out there.....and more everyday.

    But, In this particular case, the story said that voices had previously told him to do something suicidal. That seems a far cry from being spoken to in the typical context of a church setting.

  18. #18

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    YES,........but this is a WHOLE new legislation....submitted last Friday.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by FL2AK-Old Town View Post
    I don't think there is a list. Doesn't the question on the 4473 say something like "...ever been adjudicated mentally incompetent..." Possibly, anything that a court can use to declare you mentally incompetent. Could be on that list, if such a list existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkwarthog View Post
    I dont want to muck up AGL's thread, because I think he is asking a great question. It is a question that needs to be answered by society, and there are a lot of anti gun people out there.....and more everyday.

    But, In this particular case, the story said Jesus's voice had previously told him to do something suicidal. That seems a far cry from being spoken to in the typical context of a church setting.
    I re read the article that Will posted, to be sure I was clear. The man believed the voices threatening him were Lucifer (aka Satan or the Devil). Neither does the article say the voices told him to kill himself (or anyone else). I presume that, for you, the hearing of any voice, regardless of the message, is mentall illness. You're walking a fine line, Constitutionally speaking.

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkwarthog View Post
    What this man experienced was not a message from Jesus, it was mental derangement.
    So . . . How do you know that? I'm guessing God tell you right?


    Otherwise your just guessing and passing judgment based only on your own perceptions . . . Which by the way, I don’t see why your perception is any more valid than his perception that Jesus speaks to him because nether fit my own perception. That of curse is the point, we all think things others do are crazy because we are looking at them from our own view.
     
    Even so, lets assume for argument the guy is delusional . . . Does that even matter? Everyone involved seems to agree in the end that delusional or not the guy wasn’t a danger to anyone. Admit it or not we all have our dilutions so using just that to take away someone’s civil rights and even lock them up against their will is some pretty spooky stuff! Never mind that he was locked up on nothing but the opinion of a single person that he even was delusional.
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