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Thread: Sturgeon, Wilde and the State appeal decisions on waterway rights

  1. #41
    Member DanielApplin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armed_alaskan View Post
    Yup you're another one of those types (of posters), thinks because someone pays money is the only one with the right to an opinion. Typical left wing agenda at work....again....
    And your the type of poster that thinks if someone disagrees with you then you tell them to take a hike?
    Can you explain how this makes sense?

  2. #42
    Member Music Man's Avatar
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    Come on guys! you are going to get a very important thread locked or deleted! Is that what you want?
    When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
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  3. #43
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Mr. Armed, in retrospect it occurs to me that perhaps you didn't mean "D"-emocrat, perhaps you meant "D"-ick... If so; that's fair enough, and you could have just said so without being cryptic, tho properly in that case it shouldn't be capitalized. I admit that sometimes my stupid tolerance bottoms out and I neglect to engage my polite society filter, especially when responding to someone I perceive as being a dick. C'est la vie.

    As far as Sturgeon v. Masica is concerned, I do find it intriguing, and think it will be interesting to watch it play out in coming years. I understand the State v. Federal jurisdiction issue, and that this case won't resolve it, regardless of the ruling. I'm also aware of the abundant "I moved here from the L-48 because I think I should be able to do whatever I want wherever I want" demographic, many of whom feel that any perceived attempt to thwart their will surely must be some sort of conspiracy, just as it was when their parents made them eat vegetables and go to bed on time, no doubt kicking and screaming all the way. What can be said for them? Personally, when I go into a National Park I do so to get away from the jerk nozzles in helicopters, hovercraft, airboats, and other similarly obnoxious noise makers, so I admit I don't have a lot of sympathy for the rich guy from LosAncharagua being thwarted from his recreating in the Park with his hovercraft. But at least he's taking his argument properly through the legal system, and not just sophomorically ranting on the internet. Gotta give him that.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Mr. Armed, in retrospect it occurs to me that perhaps you didn't mean "D"-emocrat, perhaps you meant "D"-ick... If so; that's fair enough, and you could have just said so without being cryptic, tho properly in that case it shouldn't be capitalized. I admit that sometimes my stupid tolerance bottoms out and I neglect to engage my polite society filter, especially when responding to someone I perceive as being a dick. C'est la vie.

    As far as Sturgeon v. Masica is concerned, I do find it intriguing, and think it will be interesting to watch it play out in coming years. I understand the State v. Federal jurisdiction issue, and that this case won't resolve it, regardless of the ruling. I'm also aware of the abundant "I moved here from the L-48 because I think I should be able to do whatever I want wherever I want" demographic, many of whom feel that any perceived attempt to thwart their will surely must be some sort of conspiracy, just as it was when their parents made them eat vegetables and go to bed on time, no doubt kicking and screaming all the way. What can be said for them? Personally, when I go into a National Park I do so to get away from the jerk nozzles in helicopters, hovercraft, airboats, and other similarly obnoxious noise makers, so I admit I don't have a lot of sympathy for the rich guy from LosAncharagua being thwarted from his recreating in the Park with his hovercraft. But at least he's taking his argument properly through the legal system, and not just sophomorically ranting on the internet. Gotta give him that.
    Not very smart are you,,,,enough said.

  5. #45
    Member Armed_alaskan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halibutgrove View Post
    For those who haven't heard the news. John Sturgeon's case against the National Park Service was accepted by the U.S. Supreme Court!! Just the fact that his case was accepted is probably a miracle but obviously the judges feel the case has merit and we have a good chance of finally pushing back against federal over reach. Here's a little history for those unfamiliar with the case.

    About ten years ago, along the Nation River in Yukon-Charley Rivers National Preserve, Mr. Sturgeon was heading out for his annual moose hunt and had stopped to make a minor repair to his hovercraft. More importantly, Mr. Sturgeon was lawfully using a state-approved means of transportation on a state-owned waterway while engaged in a state-regulated activity. He was approached by armed National Park Service rangers and told to leave immediately and never return, as use of his hovercraft was banned by Service-wide regulations. The rangers and the Service’s Regional Supervisor threatened criminal sanctions should he return. His attempts to ascertain the logic and force of law behind this were carelessly avoided by federal officials. As such, Mr. Sturgeon filed suit in federal court in 2011, spending extraordinary sums of money, time and energy simply to reinstate the right of access he knew belonged to him and to us all.

    After two incomprehensible defeats at the U.S. District Court and 9th Circuit, the U.S. Supreme Court has just granted Mr. Sturgeon’s petition for certiorari and the matter will be heard this term, with a decision expected next year. The odds that were overcome to arrive at this point are positively astonishing.

    In prohibiting Mr. Sturgeon from using his hovercraft on state lands in a preserve, and in demanding state agencies request a federal permit to do work on state lands in parks and preserves, the National Park Service has irreparably compromised decades of guarantees and promises to Alaska and its citizens. If this decision is allowed to stand, it could easily destroy both sovereign authorities and the economic value of over 19 million acres of state and private lands in Alaska by unjustifiably subjecting those lands to federal regulation, including lands received at statehood and as part of the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. Even regulations that would be prohibited on adjacent federal lands could be applied to state and private lands. The U.S. Supreme Court will be deciding whether there is any way Congress intended for this to be the case.

    In the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA), Congress gave Americans millions of acres of parklands and gave Alaskans a promise – that, even though federal lands would be managed pursuant to System-wide and unit-specific rulemaking, this authority could not be used on state and private lands. 16 U.S.C. §3103(c). Congress also reinforced the continuity of the “Alaskan lifestyle” and the sovereign rights and interests of the State of Alaska in the management of state lands and resources, including submerged lands and fish and game. Mr. Sturgeon’s case is the first time the U.S. Supreme Court will consider these critical provisions, and only the second time the Court has substantively addressed any provision in ANILCA.

    John Sturgeon is not a well-heeled NGO, industry, large corporation or resource manager. He has had help but, when he wins, he will not be fully compensated for his expenses; he will simply win back the rights he already had – the rights we all had. He is a hunter. He is an Alaskan. Lucky for us, he agreed to fight back, because the system that bullied him, and others like him, only exists through the hope no one has such selfless courage.

    Donations can and will be sent directly to Mr. Sturgeon’s attorneys at Ashburn & Mason, 1227 W. 9th Avenue, Suite 200, Anchorage, AK 99501. No one making or participating in this appeal to you will financially benefit; contributions will go directly to Mr. Sturgeon and/or his attorneys to offset or compensate for the litigation costs in the matter of Sturgeon v. Masica. Think of this like “crowd funding” but without any overhead costs or fees paid to fundraising administrators – 100% of the donation goes to litigation expenses, and a positive outcome in this case will bring immeasurable benefits to us all.

    As president of the Alaska Outdoor Access Alliance, we have raised funds each year to offset and support John's legal fees. This year I'm proud to say we raised and committed $13,000 to support John's legal battle. John needs to cover a final bill of $150K to see this through to the end. I will personally be donating donating $1000 and Alaska Frontier Fabrication will commit another $1000. It would be great to see other individuals and dealers step up and do the same. Consider this a challenge and lets help John make history.

    Best Regards and lets raise some money! A little bit of your PFD will go a long way to support our future access and state sovereignty.

    Moderators, how about making this a sticky for the next 90 days?

    Mel
    Bumping it back to the top

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Music Man View Post
    Come on guys! you are going to get a very important thread locked or deleted! Is that what you want?
    No I don't so you're Correct Music man, they can continue the rants if they like.

  7. #47
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armed_alaskan View Post
    Not very smart are you,,,,enough said.
    Is that intended to be a statement, or a question? My sentence structure and punctuation isn't always perfect, but I'm smart enough to recognize it, and make an effort. You?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Music Man View Post
    Come on guys! you are going to get a very important thread locked or deleted! Is that what you want?
    2nd that, read enough bickering to last the winter and its just started.......!
    More interested in this case than punctuation & sentence structure..........GEEEZZ... enough already...
    “Nothing worth doing is easy”
    TR

  9. #49
    Member Armed_alaskan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by iofthetaiga Excuse
    me for being so bold, Mel, but since you're asking me to donate money, I feel
    compelled to inquire: Are we speaking of John L. Sturgeon who is/has been
    President, Koncor Forest Products; Member, Executive Committee of Alaska
    Resource Development Council; Member, AFA Board of Directors; President/CEO,
    Ouzinkie Native Corporation; Owner/President, Frontier Trading Company, LLC;
    CEO/President, Frontier Building Products Inc.; Advisory Cabinet Member,
    Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences; etc.? The guy who has a law
    firm on retainer and can reach his attorney at will via sat phone from a sand
    bar in Yukon-Charley? The same individual who routinely makes political
    contributions which far and away exceed my monthly salary?



    Regardless of whether I agree with his/your cause, your characterization is,
    shall we say, off-putting.



    Originally Posted by Halibutgrove
    Since you obviously don't know John as I do, I won't excuse your lame attempt to characterize Mr. Sturgeon as though he's some multi-billionaire and therefore can just fund the legal battle himself to protect YOUR right's as an Alaskan on OUR navigable waterways. Yes, Mr. Sturgeon owns a logging company on Fognak Island and fortunately for Alaskan's had the guts and some savings to decide to fight this federal overreach. I know he's already spent over $100K out of his own pocket hoping he would win this case at the lower court level. Sadly the Feds won but not surprising given the make up of the 9th Circuit. The NPS is now sweating bullets because the US Supreme court obviously accepted this case. Legal advisors gave him a 2% chance of getting it heard out of over 1600 cases submitted. If excepted, they believe he's got a 70% chance of winning! John almost pulled the plugged but with encouragement and help to fund the future legal fees from AOAA and AOC, he pressed on. How does your accusation that he may make political contributions that may exceed your monthly salary excuse you from helping if you believe this issue will help Alaska fight the federal overreach that is so pervasive now. If you agree with his cause then support it financially or by whatever means you can that will make a difference. I'm sure you could spare the cost of a cup of coffee on you monthly salary. Every little be helps. Hiding under a rock and throwing stones doesn't help anything taiga. If we had elected leaders with some back bone years ago to fight the feds on issues such as this maybe we wouldn't have to count on private citizens to do their work for them.

    For those that would like to help you can make tax deductible contributions to the Alaska Wildlife Conservation Fund and ear mark it for John's case. Visit alaskaoutdoorcouncil.org for more information.

    Mel

    You're a smart man Mel, and a well written reply to someone that only wants to pick a fight against the person and not the problem. Thanks for posting the information on a very important issue facing our State.

    "reply to someone that only wants to pick a fight against the person and not the problem" Guess no one read this part, well I'll just re-post it.

  10. #50
    Member Armed_alaskan's Avatar
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    Re-post (Mel's) for a very important case.


    About ten years ago, along the Nation River in Yukon-Charley Rivers National Preserve, Mr. Sturgeon was heading out for his annual moose hunt and had stopped to make a minor repair to his hovercraft. More importantly, Mr. Sturgeon was lawfully using a state-approved means of transportation on a state-owned waterway while engaged in a state-regulated activity. He was approached by armed National Park Service rangers and told to leave immediately and never return, as use of his hovercraft was banned by Service-wide regulations. The rangers and the Service’s Regional Supervisor threatened criminal sanctions should he return. His attempts to ascertain the logic and force of law behind this were carelessly avoided by federal officials. As such, Mr. Sturgeon filed suit in federal court in 2011, spending extraordinary sums of money, time and energy simply to reinstate the right of access he knew belonged to him and to us all.

    After two incomprehensible defeats at the U.S. District Court and 9th Circuit, the U.S. Supreme Court has just granted Mr. Sturgeon’s petition for certiorari and the matter will be heard this term, with a decision expected next year. The odds that were overcome to arrive at this point are positively astonishing.

    In prohibiting Mr. Sturgeon from using his hovercraft on state lands in a preserve, and in demanding state agencies request a federal permit to do work on state lands in parks and preserves, the National Park Service has irreparably compromised decades of guarantees and promises to Alaska and its citizens. If this decision is allowed to stand, it could easily destroy both sovereign authorities and the economic value of over 19 million acres of state and private lands in Alaska by unjustifiably subjecting those lands to federal regulation, including lands received at statehood and as part of the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. Even regulations that would be prohibited on adjacent federal lands could be applied to state and private lands. The U.S. Supreme Court will be deciding whether there is any way Congress intended for this to be the case.

    In the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA), Congress gave Americans millions of acres of parklands and gave Alaskans a promise – that, even though federal lands would be managed pursuant to System-wide and unit-specific rulemaking, this authority could not be used on state and private lands. 16 U.S.C. §3103(c). Congress also reinforced the continuity of the “Alaskan lifestyle” and the sovereign rights and interests of the State of Alaska in the management of state lands and resources, including submerged lands and fish and game. Mr. Sturgeon’s case is the first time the U.S. Supreme Court will consider these critical provisions, and only the second time the Court has substantively addressed any provision in ANILCA.

    John Sturgeon is not a well-heeled NGO, industry, large corporation or resource manager. He has had help but, when he wins, he will not be fully compensated for his expenses; he will simply win back the rights he already had – the rights we all had. He is a hunter. He is an Alaskan. Lucky for us, he agreed to fight back, because the system that bullied him, and others like him, only exists through the hope no one has such selfless courage.

    Donations can and will be sent directly to Mr. Sturgeon’s attorneys at Ashburn & Mason, 1227 W. 9th Avenue, Suite 200, Anchorage, AK 99501. No one making or participating in this appeal to you will financially benefit; contributions will go directly to Mr. Sturgeon and/or his attorneys to offset or compensate for the litigation costs in the matter of Sturgeon v. Masica. Think of this like “crowd funding” but without any overhead costs or fees paid to fundraising administrators – 100% of the donation goes to litigation expenses, and a positive outcome in this case will bring immeasurable benefits to us all.

    As president of the Alaska Outdoor Access Alliance, we have raised funds each year to offset and support John's legal fees. This year I'm proud to say we raised and committed $13,000 to support John's legal battle. John needs to cover a final bill of $150K to see this through to the end. I will personally be donating donating $1000 and Alaska Frontier Fabrication will commit another $1000. It would be great to see other individuals and dealers step up and do the same. Consider this a challenge and lets help John make history.

    Best Regards and lets raise some money! A little bit of your PFD will go a long way to support our future access and state sovereignty.

    Moderators, how about making this a sticky for the next 90 days?

    Mel

  11. #51
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armed_alaskan View Post
    Re-post (Mel's) for a very important case.
    Mr. Armed,

    It's always good to consider another person's individual perspective. I assume you have read the transcripts of this case and are well versed in it's potential implications, as you seem quite...energized by it. Can you quantify, in your own words, what potential pros and cons you feel a specific ruling might bear? And why I should contribute money to this gentleman's attorney, as Mel has suggested? I assume you agree with that premise, and have contributed a sizable sum yourself (?), as you repeatedly quote the OP...

    Thanks in advance, for your considered thoughts.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    You missed the mark. I wasn't looking for a fight at all.

    You continue to look for fights, not with the Feds but with posters opposed to your left wing agenda. The evidence is in... the continued attacks against comments that disagree with your shill tactic's. It's clear you're a shill for the Feds and a shill against the people of Alaska. Oh! wait... you're a paid poster.... now I understand the reason So you go ahead and continue to sling your words of deceit....

    Interesting
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. ~Thomas Jefferson

  13. #53
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armed_alaskan View Post
    You continue to look for fights, not with the Feds but with posters opposed to your left wing agenda.
    In your case, I'm not looking for a fight, so much as responding to your personal attacks. Frankly, it sounds like you're the one looking for a fight; appears you've blindly chosen sides in what you believe to be a "fight", yet aren't able/willing to articulate your own position or offer your educated opinion on the case, and have no alternative than to attempt to belittle others whom you perceive as disagreeing with you. I asked your personal opinion on the subject of Wilde v. Masica. If you're unable/unwilling to provide one, that speaks more about you than it does me, no? Even your chosen pseudonym denotes a certain adversarial position. Are you only interested in shouting "down with the Feds" or some other such nonsense, or do you have something else to offer?

    ... your shill tactic's.
    shill |SHil| informal
    noun
    an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.


    Consider your repeated parroting the OP's post, and compare to the definition of a "shill".
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  14. #54
    Member Music Man's Avatar
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    How about you two taking your childish bickering someplace else, everyone is tired of it!
    When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
    '08 24' HCM Granite HD "River Dog"

  15. #55
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Sturgeon's opening brief, filed 4 days ago: https://turtletalk.files.wordpress.c...ning-brief.pdf
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  16. #56
    Member Armed_alaskan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Sturgeon's opening brief, filed 4 days ago: https://turtletalk.files.wordpress.c...ning-brief.pdf
    You're just another retired Lawyer, thanks for the information and web link. https://turtletalk.wordpress.com/

  17. #57
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armed_alaskan View Post
    You're just another retired Lawyer,
    Neither of those are true. You're simply incapable of saying anything without trying to get in a personal insult, eh? How old are you; 12?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  18. #58
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Gentlemen....seriously, is it not possible for reasonable adults to disagree with one another without resulting to insults? It grows tiresome.

  19. #59
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Gentlemen....seriously, is it not possible for reasonable adults to disagree with one another without resulting to insults? It grows tiresome.
    Couldn't agree more. Regarding the only non-personal statement Mr. Armed has managed about the case: that it's "important"; have no grounds to disagree at this point, tho I believe time will tell how important it turns out to be.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

  20. #60
    Member Music Man's Avatar
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    You just have to get in the last word don't you!
    When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
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