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Thread: AR-15 Group Size with "NO" optics........????

  1. #1

    Default AR-15 Group Size with "NO" optics........????

    OK......I don't care that you and your AR-15 can shoot 1/8" groups at 600 yards.......with optics.

    NO Glass......NO optics of any type.......

    OK....Your choice of sights. Call them receiver, peep, open, aperture, whatever. You pick the range 50 yds. 100 yds. whatever.

    You have to fire ten rounds everyday for a month out of your AR-15. At the end of 30 days we look at all of your targets (You will NOT be present, to offer excuses).

    The Question: What do you think your smallest 10 round group will be.......Your Largest 10 round group will be.......And the average of all your targets for thirty days.

    I don't want to hear about what Billy'Bob does or did when he had Government Employment and free access to unlimited ammo. I want to know what you can count on yourself performing.

    Yes, you can slow fire at any rate you choose with-in 20 min. And yes you can choose your ammo, but it must fit into a standard AR-15 magazine with the appropriate follower.
    Thank You.

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    Member 4merguide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    OK......I don't care that you and your AR-15 can shoot 1/8" groups at 600 yards.......with optics.
    Wow...!!! I'd have to see that to believe it, and even then I wouldn't believe it.........lol
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

  3. #3

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    That is for the guys who say their firearm is a real tack-driver.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4merguide View Post
    Wow...!!! I'd have to see that to believe it, and even then I wouldn't believe it.........lol

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    Member 1Cor15:19's Avatar
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    Not sure I see the point with this. When using a quality rifle with quality ammo the weak link is always the user. A non-scoped AR will produce groups much like a non-scoped rifle of any other action type at 100 yards in the hands of most shooters. The AR-15 isn't the issue........
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    Not sure I see the point with this.
    Ditto. Is this intended to prove some point about optics vs. open sights, or AR's, or about peoples shooting skills, or...?
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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  6. #6

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    Just wondering what the rest of you men expect........that is all. I know that it pee'zes me off that I shoot the same size group at 50 yards with optics as I do with no optics. It makes me wonder why I spent $700.++ on optics if that AR-15 is for wondering about in a wooded environment. I don't shoot non-optic AR's beyond 75 yards because my eyes will allow it, for training and it is just a waste of ammo.

    I will disagree that an AR-15 with 16" barrel will achieve the same results as the longer sight radius of most other firearms.

    I am in the process of selling all but one center fire rifles that is NOT on an AR-15 platform. I want to further consolidate around just three center fire cartridges. And then reduce it to only two center fire cartridges.

    Just wondering what you expect for you'all feel you and your AR-15 can do.......not a one time tight group, not a five shot group where you pick the three best shots and declare that you and your AR-15 shoot 3/4 MOA with no optics. Just what can you be counted on day after day to average consentient.


    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Ditto. Is this intended to prove some point about optics vs. open sights, or AR's, or about peoples shooting skills, or...?

  7. #7
    Member OKElkHunter's Avatar
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    After over 20 years of using, teaching, and qualifying with one in the military, the standard is 3 rounds in a 5cm circle at 25 meters, No optics, just the standard military peep. I always qualified expert which was a minimum of 36 out of 40 hits on a man sized target from 50 to 400 meters. I routinely shot 39 and 40 hits annually and know others that shot just as well. My zero group at 25 meters over a 20 year period of time averaged less than 1 inch and it was normally less than 1/2 inch, holes touching. This was always done with a mil-spec M16 A1/A2/A3 and an M4 A3.

    Its all about steady position, breathing control, sight picture, and trigger control.

    Just sayin...
    “Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong." ~Calvin Coolidge~

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Just wondering what the rest of you men expect........that is all. I know that it pee'zes me off that I shoot the same size group at 50 yards with optics as I do with no optics. It makes me wonder why I spent $700.++ on optics if that AR-15 is for wondering about in a wooded environment. I don't shoot non-optic AR's beyond 75 yards because my eyes will allow it, for training and it is just a waste of ammo.

    I will disagree that an AR-15 with 16" barrel will achieve the same results as the longer sight radius of most other firearms.

    I am in the process of selling all but one center fire rifles that is NOT on an AR-15 platform. I want to further consolidate around just three center fire cartridges. And then reduce it to only two center fire cartridges.

    Just wondering what you expect for you'all feel you and your AR-15 can do.......not a one time tight group, not a five shot group where you pick the three best shots and declare that you and your AR-15 shoot 3/4 MOA with no optics. Just what can you be counted on day after day to average consentient.
    Depends on the optic. A good Aimpoint (red dot) or Eotech (holographic) is not really for making more precise groupings as much as speed of acquisition. I love Eotechs (100% personal preference) because you can get on target super fast and be pretty accurate quickly leaving both eyes open. BUT, Eotech isn't really a long distance hunting optic. It's a speed optic for "social work" if you will. So you're not spending $700 for a more precise optic. You're spending $700 for an optic that allows you to get on that target in milliseconds without stopping to think through aiming etc. I hope that made sense.

    Now if you're spending $700 on a scope for long distances greater than say 100yds, that's different. you'll see a lot of 3 gunners setting up their optics to have a 4X red dot for distance and a 1X holo for close (or even irons for close). Simple twist of the wrists bends the AR over 45 degs to switch between them. It also allows you to zero them at different distances. Maybe you want one zeroed at the traditional 50/200 and the other zeroed at 100. Or something. this is what I'm talking about:

    xti_angle_mount_300ppi-tfb1.jpg

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I think times have changed for AR's. When the Marines first got them we had to stop using the 500 yard line and use 300 yard as max for qualifying and they first ones didn't work well in V.N.. I have never had a desire to have one due to those old experiences but believe they are better now.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    I see no point ether, I shoot with guys that win matches all the time shooting iron sights over guys shooting scopes. I used to could shoot irons better than a scope when my eyes were better . . . Scope more than 3 or 4 power still tends to give me a false confidence that leads me down a marry path to crushed hoped and dreams. If the gun shoots it shoots with whatever aiming device is used.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Just wondering what the rest of you men expect.........
    At 100yds with 25yo eyes I would routinely count on 3" at 100 as average from a rest. Some better, some worse. I never shot a scoped AR enough to tell.

    With a scoped bolt action, I'd be looking for what went wrong.

    IMHO the main detriment to good shooting with the AR platform isn't the sighting system- it's the miserable trigger.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Member 1Cor15:19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Just wondering what the rest of you men expect........that is all. I know that it pee'zes me off that I shoot the same size group at 50 yards with optics as I do with no optics. It makes me wonder why I spent $700.++ on optics if that AR-15 is for wondering about in a wooded environment. I don't shoot non-optic AR's beyond 75 yards because my eyes will allow it, for training and it is just a waste of ammo.

    I will disagree that an AR-15 with 16" barrel will achieve the same results as the longer sight radius of most other firearms.

    I am in the process of selling all but one center fire rifles that is NOT on an AR-15 platform. I want to further consolidate around just three center fire cartridges. And then reduce it to only two center fire cartridges.

    Just wondering what you expect for you'all feel you and your AR-15 can do.......not a one time tight group, not a five shot group where you pick the three best shots and declare that you and your AR-15 shoot 3/4 MOA with no optics. Just what can you be counted on day after day to average consentient.
    I've shot a lot of 2 inch groups at 100 yards with open sighted rifles and since my ARs will cut that by half or more with scopes I'm still the weak link in the chain. I think with practice I could return to 2 MOA shooting with irons on my ARs, but I'd want at least an 8 MOA target for my aged eyes.
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

  13. #13

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    Thank you....that was very useful information. Rep point coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by OKElkHunter View Post
    After over 20 years of using, teaching, and qualifying with one in the military, the standard is 3 rounds in a 5cm circle at 25 meters, No optics, just the standard military peep. I always qualified expert which was a minimum of 36 out of 40 hits on a man sized target from 50 to 400 meters. I routinely shot 39 and 40 hits annually and know others that shot just as well. My zero group at 25 meters over a 20 year period of time averaged less than 1 inch and it was normally less than 1/2 inch, holes touching. This was always done with a mil-spec M16 A1/A2/A3 and an M4 A3.

    Its all about steady position, breathing control, sight picture, and trigger control.

    Just sayin...

  14. #14

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    Thank you for another helpful reply to the question. As to the trigger, Most of us have upgraded to GEISSELE Model S3G after hours of conversation with the staff at GEISSELE. We really wanted the http://www.vikingtactics.com/rifleacc_superv.html propriety made also by Geissele, sadly Not available. The 3" is consistent with my 1 3/4" to 2" groups at 50 yards with 67 y/o eyes. Again thank you for the useful info.


    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    At 100yds with 25yo eyes I would routinely count on 3" at 100 as average from a rest. Some better, some worse. I never shot a scoped AR enough to tell.

    With a scoped bolt action, I'd be looking for what went wrong.

    IMHO the main detriment to good shooting with the AR platform isn't the sighting system- it's the miserable trigger.

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    Default yep

    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    At 100yds with 25yo eyes I would routinely count on 3" at 100 as average from a rest. Some better, some worse. I never shot a scoped AR enough to tell.

    With a scoped bolt action, I'd be looking for what went wrong.

    IMHO the main detriment to good shooting with the AR platform isn't the sighting system- it's the miserable trigger.
    Im going to agree with this…..This is about what my experiences are as well. on a bench with an 5x scope and a box stock LE6920 shooting M193.. I can keep them right about 1.3" -1.6" on an average day. With Iron sights Id expect that to go to the mid 3's maybe.
    On that note I've never really considerd the AR15 a bench-rest platform anyhow…. I'm sure some of these 2k dollar custom models can shoot pretty good.
    For me if my goal is shooting tiny lil groups the price of a custom Ar15 is simply more then I want to invest in for 223 performance, when i can get a 500 dollar 22-250 bolt and do better… Thats just what my experience has shown me….To each their own

    If i need better then that ill explore a better platform altogether….

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    I think there must be some better shooters lurking on here. I pulled 2 targets from my gun rack...you save such targets to let you know what you & the gun have done and to wonder why you can't do it all the time, other than lack of steady practice. My first "clean" targets.

    NRA Highpower Match shooting conditions. Shot at 100 yards. CMP CLE Service Rifle, Kreiger Heavy SS barrel. 69 grain SMK bullets, Win. brass, CCI primers, RL15 powder.

    Target 1. Prone Slow Fire. 100-5X. 2002. Group size 1 5/8" Flyer at 8 o'clock, rest of group within 1 1/4".

    Target 2. Sitting Rapid Fire. 100-5X. 2007. Group size 2 7/8" Flyer at 7 o'clock, rest of group within 1 3/4".

    I wish I could shoot up to the ability of the rifle. It'll shoot a tight group & I'll break position and it'll shoot another tight group in a slightly different position on the target. In a different thread (handguns) someone stated the sights and the bore are always lined up the same; maybe so, but how I hold the gun and how I look through the sights makes a lot of difference on where those bullet holes show up on target. Never had a scope on the rifle.

    I shoot with some guys that can really shoot their ARs...ops, can't talk about what others can do, but it can be impressive!

  17. #17

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    Thank You good info. Reputation point sent.......Thanks for the help. Can those guys consistently shoot sub MOA......??? The truth is I am happy, Very Happy with 1 3/4" to 2" for 10 shots WITH 4.5X or 5X scope.



    Quote Originally Posted by LeonardC View Post

    I shoot with some guys that can really shoot their ARs...ops, can't talk about what others can do, but it can be impressive!

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    Good point...most of us can not shoot as good as our guns can and I prove it frequently!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    My best single event of competition shooting ever-

    600 meters, prone, unsupported. Rack M-16A2. 20" 1/7 twist FN manufactured rifle. Standard A2 aperture sights.

    20 shots for record, 20 minutes time limit, two unscored sighters.

    I shot 8 rounds in the V-ring (6"), 6 shots in the 5 ring (10"), 2 shots in the 4 ring (15.5"), and 4 shots in the 3 ring (32"). For a total score of 90 out of 100.

    I did not win the match, but I had the highest number of V ring hits that day. I keep track of this score, because its pretty dang impressive to me, and I have yet to duplicate it. (I also haven't tried more than once the next year)


    I practiced once a week for about 6 weeks before the match. Probably shot an average of 200 rounds per practice at targets ranging from 25-300 m away. The overall match was comprehensive, the long range slow fire was just one event.
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  20. #20

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    WOOW'izer that is impressive. See that is way I did not want secondhand hear'say information. If someone came on here and said he seen a guy from Homer do that I would not have believed it. But the compassion with which you recount it, makes it very useful information. Hell, I can't see 600 meters. Wow....congratulations, that is super impressive. Sorry it will not allow me to give you a rep point.......but know that I tried.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
    I shot 8 rounds in the V-ring (6"), 6 shots in the 5 ring (10"), 2 shots in the 4 ring (15.5"), and 4 shots in the 3 ring (32"). For a total score of 90 out of 100..

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