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Thread: Pistol proficiency exam.

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    Default Pistol proficiency exam.

    I am in the process of developing a handgun proficiency test for 18-21 year olds that would be so stringent that the state would allow them to obtain a CCW permit.

    I have the course lesson plan, I teach that, but I'm taking a survey of current CCW holders (or just those who carry) to determine the practicality of my final exam.

    Here's the final.
    Time: 1 Minute
    Distance: 10 yards
    Number of Shots: 20 with 1 mag change.
    Number of targets: 2 (D-1, black X ring)

    Shooter stands at low ready. At the signal, fire ten shots in one target, reload, fire ten shots at second target.
    All shots must impact the 4" X-ring.

    This must be done with one of a short list of 9x19 pistol.

    G-17/19, XD, FN, H&K, Sig, basically, any of the mid to full size 9's capable holding 10 or more rounds in magazine.

    The question; How many of you can pass this test?
    I've camped out at several shooting ranges over the past few months and when someone comes to shoot I've offered to provide one box of ammo and targets for anyone willing to demonstrate these proficiencies. I have to date heard 154 who claimed to be able to do this. The actual stats were very disappointing. My 15 & 17 grand kids can do it plus only 4 others of those who chose to shoot, 89 in total. The questions were not always well received and many were quite rude but I consider all such who don't shoot to lack the skill set needed to pass.

    Any takers? Anyone willing to demonstrate this skill set? Yes you can have a practice run. The reload blows folks away so that may have to go but now it's in.
    Thanks for your time.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    I don't think your proposal is necessarily unreasonable, provided it's preceded by adequate ground school, although it's far more stringent than any state ccw test I've ever encountered. Do you intend to provide weapons, ammunition, and practice time? All state courses I've experienced allow students to qualify with their carry weapon of choice, and focus on close quarters/personal space/home invasion defense situations, safe gun handling, and legal considerations, rather than tactical type training. Final proficiency exams have typically required center mass hits on a silhouette type target at 7 yards, in my experience.
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    Can it be done with any other caliber besides 9. what if the student has a 40 or 45? Where is this test located. I could bring some FAS shooters to prove that it can be done.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I am in the process of developing a handgun proficiency test for 18-21 year olds that would be so stringent that the state would allow them to obtain a CCW permit.
    I read it more as a question of appropriateness, rather than practicality. Practicality aside, IMHO it's overkill. There's much more to CCW than demonstrated proficiency. I would rate in order of importance: 1) safe gun handling practices, 2) legal knowledge and responsibility, 3) demonstrated proficiency. No state in which I have held a CCW would issue a permit based simply on the impressiveness a persons demonstrated shooting skill, and I think that's appropriate.
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    For me the shooting is number three for importance with law and mindset tied at number one. Probably a good drill but not real life firefight and if done for real on two perps a lot of questions would be asked.JMOFO
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    I see a number of shooter at the indoor range that I am an RSO at, and I would also bet that while most are good shots, they would not be able to pass this test. I also think that all 20 shots in a 4" x ring is not practical! When I practice I use a reduced size target and am happy to keep all in the 9 ring. Besides how many times will a CCW holder need to fire this many rounds? In my opinion CCW is more for defensive situations and not offensive.
    It is good that you are teaching this material and I will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

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    I would not like it. I have always carried 6-shooters for the out-of-doors. I don't own anything less than .44 caliber unless it is a .22lr. Why go out and buy a new gun especially a 9 mil if I have no use for and I would just sell it afterwards?

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    http://www.realpolice.net/forums/archive/t-7676.html

    Why do you want a citizen to qualify at a higher standard than many LEO organizations?

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    I can do this with my 1911 in 45acp and maybe with the Glock but haveing no experience with the other pistols probably not. Lack of any experience with the guns listed would probably eliminate me as well. Oh, I don't have a CCW nor do I carry often. And yup I have several 10rd mags for my 1911 just in case I'm silly enough to get into an extended fire fight with a hand gun.

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    A full minute is a LOT of time. I would think 30 seconds would be generous...

    We shoot one stage of our qual course six rnds strong hand, a two handed reload, then six rnds support hand (both unsupported) at 10 yds from the holster in 14 seconds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKmud View Post
    A full minute is a LOT of time. I would think 30 seconds would be generous...

    We shoot one stage of our qual course six rnds strong hand, a two handed reload, then six rnds support hand (both unsupported) at 10 yds from the holster in 14 seconds.
    Time isnít going to be an issue for most anyone familiar with a mag change. The tricky part is the ďAll shots must impact the 4" X-ring.Ē thing. I think I could do it about 75% of the time with a gun I know well but that 4Ē@ 10 yards 20 for 20 with the clock ticking in your head . . . dropped shouts are going to kick most anyones butt a lot of the time.
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    Shooting a specific coarse of fire is just a game. By shooting the coarse a bunch you learn to use almost all of the time available so that you can aim as careful as possible and still remain under time. After you shoot the coarse fifty or a hundred times the clock in your head spaces the shots for you without worrying about the clock at all. Take your time changing mags and starting with a full mag and one in the tube you fire ten make a 3 sec or less mag change and continue without having to rack the slide. Shoot from braced kneeling for accuracy.

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    I thought the min age was 21 to have a CCW? With that being said regardless of a shooting test most states do not even require a proficiency test unless it is under NRA guidelines. As stated earlier there is much more to a CCW than hitting a pie plate at 10yds from the low ready. I am not trying to shoot holes in your idea but from a teaching stand point proficiency is very important... not as important as a weapon is a tool of last resort mind set. Secondly to put a restriction on what weapons they should use for the test is somewhat out of alignment IMO..... as an act of concealing a weapon most if not all of your list are not a prime choice for a concealed handgun. I carry a 19 everyday in my job, I also carry the 19 in a concealed as well but it is not my perfect choice of a CCW. The rest of the list is far to large for a conceal weapon for the average size of a young adult. I believe that the states that do require a proficiency test for a CCW test with what your carrying so from an instructor stand point you are dictating what these students will be required to carry if that is the state requirement.

    If you miss one round is that a fail for the course? You would also have to require the same standard for every student above the age of 21 as well.

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    Well... This particular test isn't new nor is it tough at least 80% of my basic students have done it.
    Also to hold any standard it must be measured in a reasonable manner. Likely that would be 80% of all shots in the 4" ring.
    As has been pointed out 60 seconds is a long time but the purpose of the clock is to impose a little pressure on the shooter. I'm thinking shooting under pressure would be a good defensive skill to have. The clock is what disables many shooters.
    Further, you could use any gun you choose and we're just requiring a reload, revolvers are allowed as are any caliber you choose. With revolver and smaller capacity auto loaders you could shoot six, reload, shoot six. That won't change anything.
    Some don't understand what we're after here. Also of those who shot on this target very few even got half their shots on the cardboard. It is 18" wide and 30" tall. Ya think that's good?

    As IOT and others pointed out, certainly Safety and knowledge of the law would take a front seat to shooting ability but from a legislative point, the concern is that the young and inexperienced might allow their shots go astray, which would certainly create safety concerns. And yes higher standards than a NY City police officer can attain is the point. The greatest concern from city hall in a police shooting is that their officer might shoot a bystander. Remember the 8 wounded at the Empire State Building? All hit by police officer fire shooting at an adversary some 12' away.
    I've coaxed many CCW holders to take this simple test with dismal results. I might add that very few would be considered safe at a range and have little or no range etiquette and often sweep other shooters with their muzzle. This test also rattled some shooters so much that it resulted in two dropped guns.
    I've seen enough to know that a significant problem of gun handling and marksmanship exists, regardless of the age, experience,military training, ad nauseam.

    And yes normal CCW age is 21 or older but I'm trying to convince legislatures that, since we can send 18 and 19 year old kids to fight a war, we should allow them to carry here at home. By demonstrating this high level of proficiency (only one of many aspects to consider) we hope to accomplish just that. Also my list of full size guns make this much easier than using your favorite snubby or micro pistol. Would you rather try it with a Kahr PM 45?

    Now anyone who owns a pistol could give this a try. Let me know your results. You have 50 rounds two magazines or revolver quick loads, (even though I do it single loading my model 13) and two targets. Burn thirty for practice runs. Then shoot. It ain't hard, you guys stop charging grizzlies everyday, right.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by sweepint View Post

    If you miss one round is that a fail for the course? You would also have to require the same standard for every student above the age of 21 as well.
    Well I'm all for that but I'd say we would eliminate 90% of current carriers. Is that the real concern here? Do you think that any CCW course teaches an individual to safely handle, carry and shoot a handgun?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Just for what it's worth Murphy. When I first qualified in Iowa it was under the teaching of Chuck Gates a well known local gun smith an retired police officer. We had a 4 hr informal common sense situational class and the we went to the range. To qualify in the shooting end of the test you had to score a 60 or higher while shooting 10 rounds at a B3 target at 50 feet. Considering that the 9 ring on the B3 is 3.06 inches and I qualified with a 93 using a 1st issue or generation 1 Glock 17. I feel pretty certain that I could do it most of the time.......however a flyer might get me now and again. You know if the sun got in my eye, a skeeter was biting me or I got dizzy light headed and farted or ...................

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I like the 18 to 21 but only if they served in the military.
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    Too bad the course is limited to pistols in the 9mm range. Some of us still carry larger caliber smoke poles . . . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly 2 View Post
    Too bad the course is limited to pistols in the 9mm range. Some of us still carry larger caliber smoke poles . . . . .
    It's not limited.
    Minimum caliber: 9x19/38 special.
    Maximum caliber: 500 S&W.
    Hows that? Can you do it? I'm not finding many who are capable of even getting 50% of shots in 4" target center.
    I don't know why this is so hard?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    I like the 18 to 21 but only if they served in the military.
    I don't disagree with that but I got nowhere with that. It was pointed out that most military folk are over 21 when they get out. I countered with; so let them carry while they are in service and that seemed to open another can of worms about the CO giving permission. This is a new direction.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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