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Thread: antlerless hunts the issue continues..

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default antlerless hunts the issue continues..

    Hey all.. sorry for not being around to much, had a very large spine surgery last month, and put most issues aside for the year.

    but here is one that will need some attention..

    the anti antlerless crowd seems to be taking new tactics. I am not sure what the out come will be, but if hte legislator takes any action it will affect the entire state, not just the back yard areas, a few folks are trying to protect, for their own use.

    the interior on the whole this year seen a very different moose season, late spring, late calf's, late antler shedding, late leaf drop, and low moose sightings interior wide.

    a little history here.. is

    the local Advisory committees must vote to keep antlerless hunts open in every GMU they are held in, be it the interior, northern, or south central regions of the state. because back in the 70's the interior herd crashed and a similar group forced legislation to make antlerless hunts illegal. the legislator gave the AC's the ability to work with ADFG and authorize or not.. the seasonal hunt and must be approved each year.

    so.. if the legislator removes that authorization, all antlerless hunt will close immediately.. state wide. hot spot hunts, subsistence hunts, all of them .

    these hunts are based on science.. and have been supported nearly 3-1 in favor by the public at every meeting held..

    so.. here's a chance if you support .. or if you don't.. to speak to the legislators.. You don't have to attend the meeting, i will post the email addresses to the two senators at the bottoms.. take a moment to call or email and express your views.. Also.. ADFG bio's have NOT been invited to this meeting at the time of this posting. 20 B counts are in and look great as i understand .. and 20A counts are nearly done..

    thanks for taking the time to read this.. I wont be replying much if at all.. sitting at the computer is excruciatingly pain full ..

    Vince

    xpanded Cow Moose Hunts
    Legislative Inquire

    Senators Click Bishop and John Coghill will be hosting a public meeting on the Interior’s expanded cow moose hunts. Numerous concerns and opinions have been expressed and we would like to provide an opportunity for the public to express their views on this issue. Please join Senators Bishop and Coghill at the Tanana Valley Sportsmen’s Association building December 17, 5:30-7:30pm.

    When: December 17, 5:30-7:30pm

    Where: TVSA Building
    TVSA Way (off of Boat Street)
    Fairbanks, AK

    Questions can be directed to Mike Smith in Senator Bishop’s office.
    (907) 456-8161
    Email: Senator.John.Coghill@akleg.gov
    District A
    Party: Republican
    Toll-Free: 877-465-3719


    Email: Senator.Click.Bishop@akleg.gov
    District C
    Party: Republican
    Toll-Free: 800-336-7383


    note from adfg regarding this email


    This email is an FYI. This is not a meeting being conducted by the Department, and the Department has not been invited to participate in this discussion. My apologies if you get this email more than once, as I am sending to anyone who is on or has expressed interest in receiving information on the Delta, Fairbanks, Middle Nenana River, and Minto Nenana Advisory Committees. These advisory committees will hold their normal GMU 20A & 20B Moose Management Meeting in January. I will advertise for that as I get a meeting location set.
    Nissa Pilcher, Board Support Section
    459-7263

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  2. #2
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    ***** NOTE!! I am no longer on the Fairbanks AC.. i did not run for reelection this year due to my medical situation, it will be several months before i am up and a full time member of the community, and lots of Physical therapy to come.. so i did not feel it fare to the public.. I will remain active as I may..

    Hello AC members,

    Attached is a letter that Don Quarberg, Delta AC chair, in response to the legislative inquiry that will happen on the 17th with Coghill and Bishop.

    Don wanted me to send it to the other ACs that are involved with the reauthorization seeking support on the letter. The Fairbanks AC can discuss it at their meeting on Wednesday, the Minto Nenana AC can talk about it next week, but folks on the Middle Nenana River AC won’t meet again until after the meeting.

    Let me know your thoughts if you are so inclined.

    Nissa Pilcher
    Boards Support Section
    Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game
    459-7263
    1-866-459-7263


    Delta
    Fish and Game
    Advisory Committee
    Interior Region
    Fish and Game Advisory Committees
    Don Quarberg
    Chairman
    HC60 Box 3070
    Delta Junction, AK 99737
    Central
    Delta Junction
    Eagle
    Fairbanks
    GASH
    Koyukuk River
    McGrath
    Middle Nenana River
    Middle Yukon River
    Minto-Nenana
    Ruby
    Tanana-Rampart-Manley
    Upper Tanana/Fortymile
    Yukon Flats


    ANTLERLESS MOOSE HARVEST RATIONALE



    BACKGROUND:

    Article VIII. Natural Resources, Section 4. Sustained Yield, Alaska State Constitution states “fish, forests, wildlife, grasslands, and all other replenishable resources belonging to the State shall be utilized, developed, and maintained on the sustained yield principle, subject to preferences among beneficial uses”.

    Sec. 16.05.255. Regulations of the Board of Game; management requirements.

    (d) Regulations adopted under (a) of this section must provide that, consistent with the provisions of AS 16.05.258, the taking of moose, deer, elk, and caribou by residents for personal or family consumption has preference over taking by nonresidents.

    (e) The Board of Game shall adopt regulations to provide for intensive management programs to restore the abundance or productivity of identified big game prey populations as necessary to achieve human consumptive use goals of the board in an area where the board has determined that
    (1) consumptive use of the big game prey population is a preferred use;
    (2) depletion of the big game prey population or reduction of the productivity of the big game prey population has occurred and may result in a significant reduction in the allowable human harvest of the population; and
    (3) enhancement of abundance or productivity of the big game prey population is feasibly achievable utilizing recognized and prudent active management techniques.

    (f) The Board of Game may not significantly reduce the taking of an identified big game prey population by adopting regulations relating to restrictions on harvest or access to the population, or to management of the population by customary adjustments in seasons, bag limits, open and closed areas, methods and means, or by other customary means authorized under (a) of this section, unless the board has adopted regulations, or has scheduled for adoption at the next regularly scheduled meeting of the board regulations, that provide for intensive management to increase the take of the population for human harvest consistent with (e) of this section.
    (g) The Board of Game shall establish population and harvest goals and seasons for intensive management of identified big game prey populations to achieve a high level of human harvest.

    MANAGEMENT OF ANTLERLESS MOOSE HARVESTS


    Antlerless moose hunts are a worthy management tool to alter the population in times of necessity. The department has developed tangible density dependent indices, including twining rates, short yearling weights, age at first parturition, browse removal rates, etc., that provide real time indications of the nutritional status of the moose population and the habitat. Based on the results of these indices, antlerless moose hunts may or may not be necessary to control the population and prevent a population crash. In addition, recruitment (50+ % of which are female), longevity of females compared to males, rutting stress on males during breeding season, and human harvest that targets mostly males all result in increased numbers of female moose in the population. Antlerless hunts can be viewed as the reward of intensive management of moose populations that ultimately provide additional harvest opportunity for humans.

    There are many factors involved in a successful moose hunt. One of many of those factors is the overall density of moose in the hunt area. Other factors include the number of hunters utilizing the same hunting area, what methods and equipment those hunters are using to stalk and hunt those animals, distribution of the moose throughout the hunt area, as well as the complex and dynamic role that weather plays on the behavior of animals and hunters alike. Finally, consideration must be given to the time and effort expended by the individual moose hunter, as an important factor determining the success of the hunt. There might also be other factors contributing to an unsuccessful hunt besides simply a lack of moose on the hunting ground.

    The density of animals in GMU 20A & 20B is 2 - 2.5 moose per square mile. Measurements of the nutritional status of moose in GMU 20A & B via the density dependent indices suggest that antlerless moose hunts are currently advisable. We would be remiss in not heeding the biological advice of these measurements. Consequently, we support Antlerless Moose hunts at this time.


    SIGNED TITLE DATE

    Don Quarberg Chair, Delta Advisory Committee 12/10/13

    i hope this gives everyone some back ground and somting to work on.. please take the time to provide the legislators some input on your feelings.

    i will be in person at the meeting.

    if you would like to keep up with this and other issues.. please meet up here also..

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1222...=group_comment

    send me a note on FB , i scan and keep all antis out.. thanks
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    just a bump and a reminder about this meeting.

    Senators Bishop andCoghill to Host Public Forum on
    Antlerless Moose Hunts

    Meeting will beheld at the Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association on Tuesday, December 17th
    FAIRBANKS - Senators Click Bishop (R-Fairbanks) and JohnCoghill (R-North Pole) will be hosting a public meeting for the purpose ofhearing public comment on antlerless moose hunts.
    Antlerless moose hunts may include; bulls who have droppedtheir antlers, cows, or calves. Antlerless moose hunts are regulated by theAlaska Board of Game (BOG) and have been a point of contention in GMU 20,surrounding the Fairbanks area, since active predator/prey management by theAlaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G) has resulted in high moosepopulations.
    Some hunters have questioned the population objectives5 AAC 92.108, set by the BOG for moose populations in GMU 20, saying they aretoo low. While other hunters distrust ADF&G data on current moose numbersand the health of the habitat to sustain larger populations of moose. Afterreceiving numerous calls and emails with varying opinions on the subject,Senator Bishop said, "It's time to get everyone in the same room so we canhear both the pros and cons of cow moose hunts."
    Background information from ADF&G on moose management inthe Interior can be obtained from their publication Interior Alaska MooseNews http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/species/speciesinfo/moose/pdfs/interior_moose_news_fall_2011.pdf

    Senator Cathy Giessel (R-Anchorage Hillside, Turnagain Arm and North Kenai),Chair of the Senate Resources Committee, has been invited along with InteriorLegislators. This is your opportunity to have your voice heard by members ofthe Alaska Legislature regarding BOG actions to allow antlerless moose huntingin interior game management units.

    WHO: Senators Click Bishop, John Coghill, Cathy Giessel, and other InteriorLegislators.
    WHAT: Public comment on antlerless moose hunts.
    WHEN: Tuesday, December 17th, 2013, 5:30 pm to 7:30 pm
    WHERE: Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association


    For more information, please contact Michael Smith in Senator Bishop's office at (907)456-8161.
    Please contact your Staterepresentatives, and pass this email on to like minded friends on your emaillists, to contact their representatives. This kind of effort it will make adifference..
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member ninefoot's Avatar
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    i got no dog in this hunt...just wanted to say i hope your rehab goes well and you recover quickly from your surgery vince....

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    So many people, so many opinions. All I know, there are not moose like there used to be or like there should be. I want that to change. Science has had a crack at studying moose for over 100 years so for crying out loud, the solution should be an easy one. Until they do something, I have no respect for ADFG. And it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they got around to fixing the freaking Kenai River Chinook problem either. So sick of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PacWestFishTaxidermy View Post
    So many people, so many opinions. All I know, there are not moose like there used to be or like there should be. I want that to change. .
    A cursory search of moose harvest reports over the last ten years shows these harvests, 2002 about 6600 moose, 2007 bout 7400 moose, 2012 about 6300 moose. That's fairly consistent harvesting all things considered. Wild animals are not static creatures, and nature is not static. Weather and vegetation changes and human development change things not to mention more people than ever live in Alaska.

    Change is the constant. And yet the managers keep harvest levels consistent. I'd say they are doing their jobs. Sure they could probably push things for a few years And squeeze some more animals out for people to hunt. But inevitably there would be a crash and then people like you would complain because they let the herd crash. Look at the deer herds in PWS and Kodiak. There's some no predator hunting for you. The herds rise out of control, then boom, one or two bad winters and the population bottoms out. Then you have to wait for it to come back again.

    These cow hunts are a method to manage the boom or bust cycles to keep the highs from getting too high and the lows from getting too low. Every now and then Mother Nature kicks in and decides she'll throw a monkey wrench into the works tho and then we hear cries that ADF&G isn't doing their job. I say they do a great job and they did an even better job before people who have no idea about managing wild game herds put so much political pressure on them.
    An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodux View Post
    A cursory search of moose harvest reports over the last ten years shows these harvests, 2002 about 6600 moose, 2007 bout 7400 moose, 2012 about 6300 moose. That's fairly consistent harvesting all things considered. Wild animals are not static creatures, and nature is not static. Weather and vegetation changes and human development change things not to mention more people than ever live in Alaska.

    Change is the constant. And yet the managers keep harvest levels consistent. I'd say they are doing their jobs. Sure they could probably push things for a few years And squeeze some more animals out for people to hunt. But inevitably there would be a crash and then people like you would complain because they let the herd crash. Look at the deer herds in PWS and Kodiak. There's some no predator hunting for you. The herds rise out of control, then boom, one or two bad winters and the population bottoms out. Then you have to wait for it to come back again.

    These cow hunts are a method to manage the boom or bust cycles to keep the highs from getting too high and the lows from getting too low. Every now and then Mother Nature kicks in and decides she'll throw a monkey wrench into the works tho and then we hear cries that ADF&G isn't doing their job. I say they do a great job and they did an even better job before people who have no idea about managing wild game herds put so much political pressure on them.
    Well stated! Rep sent.
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    I am still not convinced shooting cows carrying calf's is ever a good herd management strategy, but the antler restrictions make very little sense.
    For instance, during the HT hunt which is 24 days long you are limited to spike fork, 50" or 4 brow tines. so you have to pass on a 40 incher....than Oct 1 rolls around and from then until Feb 28 you can shoot antlerless moose, so essentially you can now shoot the same 40 incher you could not shoot in September......... does this make sense? Did F&G forget moose drop their horns............?
    The antler restrictions seems like a prescription for wanton waste........
    “Nothing worth doing is easy”
    TR

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    I'm sure that 'antlerless' means a cow moose...not a bull that dropped it's antlers.
    "Grin and Bear It"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akgramps View Post
    I am still not convinced shooting cows carrying calf's is ever a good herd management strategy, but the antler restrictions make very little sense.
    For instance, during the HT hunt which is 24 days long you are limited to spike fork, 50" or 4 brow tines. so you have to pass on a 40 incher....than Oct 1 rolls around and from then until Feb 28 you can shoot antlerless moose, so essentially you can now shoot the same 40 incher you could not shoot in September......... does this make sense? Did F&G forget moose drop their horns............?
    The antler restrictions seems like a prescription for wanton waste........
    The antler restrictions are a means to reduce the take on the resource. Without it, the bulls would be wiped out pretty badly in many areas. Fewer hunters go out in the later hunts, thus the take is less. If you had the same open season on everything earlier in the fall, it would be a massacre. I don't see the antler restrictions as a prescription for wanton waste at all

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tearbear View Post
    I'm sure that 'antlerless' means a cow moose...not a bull that dropped it's antlers.
    No, "antlerless" does not mean a cow moose only. While it may equate to that in the fall, it would still include any bull moose who have dropped their antlers later in the year. "Antlerless" is defined specifically as "the absence of antlers." If a bull has dropped his antlers, then there is a clear "absence of antlers" and he would be a legal animal at that time.

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    The antler restrictions are pointless, otherwise fish and game would not have 1,210 any bull tags in the drawing. We were informed that the antler restrictions in 20A are there to extend the season 5 days and that the guides pushed that regulation change. I hope the board of game eliminates it during their meetings as it is pretty obvious that it is a direct contradiction when you offer so many drawing permits in a restricted hunt. Our group personally has had to rely on the antlerless tags because of the antler restrictions.

    Tearbear, antlerless is just what it states... any moose without antlers. When a bull drops his antlers, he is fair game. A bull calf that hasn't developed antlers yet is also fair game. This is a pretty large debate for the Minto Flats area, but this year with the late fall, the moose are about a month behind on dropping their antlers. We saw a mid 50" bull on the 7th of December this year, as well as two other smaller bulls while we did a 1 day hunt. I hear folks screaming about how the moose are gone in Minto, but it was like a cattle ranch out there with all the tracks, and we spotted 12 moose in 3 hours of hunting.

    As for 20A cow moose hunts, I went to the meeting and although I didn't speak (which now I regret a little), I did submit comments and I did talk to Coghill for a bit right as the place was thinning out. He has several questions that he will be bringing to Fish and Game now, and it was a great opportunity to listen to both sides of the equation. You've got airboaters and pilots that are used to seeing lots of moose, that aren't seeing them any longer. Then you have people that are busting brush and on the ground that haven't seen much change. I think people are frantic this year because this fall was so off from a normal year. The cow hunts out there have already been scaled way back. There are considerably fewer drawing permits available, and the registration hunt in the fall is nearly non-existent with the exception of an extremely remote area that has had nearly no harvest to date because the access is too difficult. There are a couple of areas that allow up to 100 permits, but most are 10-30 permits issued for cow moose. The harvest rate for these permits isn't the greatest, so we are talking about handfuls of moose, and in comparison to natural mortality and predation, hunters are a minority when it comes to the death of cows and calves.

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    Member Yellowknife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tearbear View Post
    I'm sure that 'antlerless' means a cow moose...not a bull that dropped it's antlers.
    Antlerless is defined in the F&G regulations book as "The absence of antlers". In statute, there is a longer definition the means the same thing. So yes, bulls that have dropped their antlers are legal. Also calves are legal unless specifically stated "except calves" in the hunt stipulations.

    In truth, most bulls hang on to their antlers until after the various winter seasons have closed due to EO. The ones that do drop early enough to be legal are almost always the larger, mature bulls. I've been doing anterless hunts for a while now, and have only seen one anterless bull taken. It's not at all common.

    As a side note. An older winter bull will have been through the rut, and may be incredibly skinny compared to a cow.

    Yk

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tearbear View Post
    Even though the definition of 'antlerless' is the absence of antlers...I still believe it means a cow moose. In hunts that are for cows, it states antlerless, in hunts for bulls with no antler restrictions it states one bull, or any bull.
    You can treat it as a cow only hunt if you want, but based on regulation and statutes, a bull without antlers would be a legal animal in an "antlerless" hunt. Simple as that. Like Yellowknife said, most animals taken in an antlerless hunt will end up being cows, but the stipulation does allow for it to take new calves as well unless specifically prohibited by the hunt.

    Like you said, for bull only hunts, they specify "one bull" or "any bull". If it were meant to be a cow hunt, it would specify "one cow" or "any cow" or "female moose" or whatever. It does not.

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    Member Tearbear's Avatar
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    Well...thanks for the antlerless info guys, I always thought it was antlerless, meaning cow only.
    "Grin and Bear It"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowknife View Post
    Antlerless is defined in the F&G regulations book as "The absence of antlers". In statute, there is a longer definition the means the same thing. So yes, bulls that have dropped their antlers are legal. Also calves are legal unless specifically stated "except calves" in the hunt stipulations.

    In truth, most bulls hang on to their antlers until after the various winter seasons have closed due to EO. The ones that do drop early enough to be legal are almost always the larger, mature bulls. I've been doing anterless hunts for a while now, and have only seen one anterless bull taken. It's not at all common.

    As a side note. An older winter bull will have been through the rut, and may be incredibly skinny compared to a cow.

    Yk
    I personally know of a few antlerless bulls taken. I think it is fairly common. It is stupid to call it an antlerless hunt when you are wanting cows shot. Make it a COW hunt. If you people can't tell a bull without antlers from a cow, something is wrong.

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    Member Yellowknife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northway View Post
    I personally know of a few antlerless bulls taken. I think it is fairly common. It is stupid to call it an antlerless hunt when you are wanting cows shot. Make it a COW hunt. If you people can't tell a bull without antlers from a cow, something is wrong.
    http://www.newsminer.com/features/ou...a4bcf6878.html


    91 Moose taken on the Minto hunt this year. 80 Cows, 11 Bulls. Certainly some or most of those 11 were bull calves. Guess it depends on what you consider "common"? Certainly it is a percentage, but not the largest one.

    I suspect that BOG/F&G doesn't care. In any area where they think they have enough moose to support a cow hunt, a few bulls taken isn't going to hurt.



    Yk

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by northway View Post
    I personally know of a few antlerless bulls taken. I think it is fairly common. It is stupid to call it an antlerless hunt when you are wanting cows shot. Make it a COW hunt. If you people can't tell a bull without antlers from a cow, something is wrong.
    I think the issue isn't as much determining the difference between a bull that dropped it's antlers and a cow, it's telling a female calf from a male calf before it has developed antlers in the first place. These hunts are usually targeting cows and calves as a population control measure. The "antlerless" specification makes that a bit more straightforward without having much of any impact on the adult bull population (very small percentage of the overall take).

  19. #19

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    Isn't this an any bull area also? I think most, if not all of 20B is, so what does it matter if a few bull calves get taken? With the amount of wolf tracks that we saw out there, I think there is a bigger problem then 11 bull moose put in peoples freezers.

    I know of a couple antlered bulls shot out there this year. Had to answer some questions to the troopers a week after my hunt since one was shot about a quarter mile from us while we were being checked. Apparently the hunters tried to bury the head in the snow, but got caught by the troopers.

  20. #20

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    Looks like there is an August any bull season, then a later 50" 4 brow tine season in September for Minto.

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