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Thread: legal snagging? did anyone else see this?

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    Default legal snagging? did anyone else see this?


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    i think its bad enough most of the sockeye we catch are cut up by commercial nets and our banks are overloaded by the unlimited number of guided drop offs leaving even the more remote banks elbow to elbow. when did we forget this is supposed to be sporting?

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    Member kenaibow fan's Avatar
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    Kinda throws the adage out the window…."if it was easy everyone would do it." I agree with some of what the guide was saying, but at what point do we stop putting people first and…….wait for it…….think about the fish?!

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    Ya know, I'm a fair chase guy all the way. However, after seeing hundreds of reds fought to exhaustion, cut to hell from being fouled hooked,then released floating down stream. How many of those released to you really think goes on to spawn?? The rule now is snagging,, we are just kidding ourselves to think otherwise. In my heart I believe the lesser of the evils is to allow foul hooked reds to be retained. No treble hooks are anything like that and for reds only, this is meat fishing nothing really sporting about it. I don't feel that way about any other fish, but I do believe it would cause less damage to the fishery. How many reds do you think are wounded because a angler releases several before they get their legal 3?

    Just my view and I guess I have to be prepared to be flamed, but this is how I feel. I know I released fish the last few years that I knew were going to die and watched them float down stream, because they were not legally hooked.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    No flaming from me, Steve, but I disagree. On an average day on the Kenai or Russian the average fisherman will take home one salmon, with the average rising slightly if the fishing is smokin' hot. Of course there are folks who limit every time, but there are also plenty who never touch a fish because they don't know the technique, aren't fishing in a good spot, etc. Legalizing snagging will dramatically increase the overall harvest, thus either reducing escapement or reallocating fish from other users. Those folks that generally go home with none or one will almost certainly limit every time, and in the process will rip holes in the stomach of just as many fish as before (or more, I would bet, as they would be way more agressive about pulling their hooks through the water instead of allowing it to drift). I hear you that some released fish do not survive, but I would wager that the overall number of fish dying from harvest and wounding combined would rise pretty significantly under this regulation.

    If we want to cut down on the rate of released fish being mortally wounded, we need to keep educating folks on proper technique - not just for fishing so that a high percentage of fish are fair hooked, but also on how to properly release a fish. If I foul hook a fish, I am generally able to break it off within 5-10 seconds tops. It's not perfect, but it sure is better than the alternative in my view. I can't recall any fish that I've released in the past 3 years that I knew was going to die - I'm sure some have, but the harm done can be mitigated with proper technique. Simply throwing our hands up and allowing snagging will do more harm, not less.

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    I'm with Stid, take home the first three you touch. No fishing after your limit is reached. Single hook only.

    Putting lipstick on this pig of a fishery and calling it sporting is a disservice to the resource with all the released "snagged" fish. I am all about personal use and harvesting and the current scenario in this fishery is not what it should be......it needs to be about resource utilization, not as much the method.

    Personally, I think a melding of Stid and Brian's idea's would be perfect. Continue to educate and stress technique (cuz it's easier to land a fish hooked in the mouth than the motor) but take away the fear of a ticket when your not so perfect technique foul hooks a fish and you still get a fish to take home. They can tailor the tackle restriction so that things like jigs, trebles, and other such equipment are not allowed or loopholed in.

    And it's not the hooking of fish that causes mortality, it's the goofballs that drag fish on the beach, step on them while retrieving their 50 cent fly, then kicking the fish back into the river.

    Personally I think taking home the first three you touch would mean less fish ultimately dead at the end of each season, but, even if it was 6 in one and a half-dozen in the other.....at least more of that same number of dead fish would be in freezers instead of washed up dead from the battle and release.

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    Look.... the overwhelming majority of sockeye encountered with hook and line ARE snagged. Precious few are hooked thru willful take on the part of the fish. The fish is clearly NOT chasing the gear. The gear IS chasing the fish. Again virtually every fish encountered with hook and line is SNAGGED!

    The ones legally kept just happen to be snagged in the mouth.... which is the only requirement for retention.

    If the goal is to minimize body-snagged sockeye ( that by current law MUST be released), a most efficacious way to achieve that would be to transition the snaggery to using circle hooks. By design, these hooks make it virtually impossible to body-snag and maim a sockeye salmon.... or any other NON-target species (coho, pink, king, rainbow, dollie) swimming amongst the target sockeye. A circle hook is designed to find a LEGAL maxillary/mandibular purchase that is ideal for this fishery.

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...eye?highlight=

    Anyone who has actually tried this method can vouch for its unequivocal effectiveness. Faster legal limits with far fewer encounters to get there. If ADF/BOF is looking for an aesthetic, orderly sockeye fishery with the least impact/harm to the fish resource (for both target and NON-target species), this is certainly one way to gitter'dun.
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    A quick word to the politics of this proposal. One of the strongest arguments used by the commercial fishery for higher allocation of the sockeye resource, granted through more fishing time and area, is the prevention of overescapement into the rivers. Where this argument seems to lose steam is when they argue against sports anglers keeping snagged fish. Sports anglers are one of the "tools" in the management's toolbag for preventing overescapement. The Department of Fish and Game has always been Opposed to this proposal whenever it comes up. Now, why would that be? If the Kenai continually misses the goal's top end, wouldn't they wish for all their tools to be as effective as possible? And they have supported the claim that allowing the retention of snagged fish would increase the harvest inriver of sockeye.

    So its clear that the only over escapement really concerning both the Comfish industry and the ADF&G is that of economic overescapement, and not biological overescapement. Fish that go past the commercial fishery are lost to them economically. If an excess of fish beyond the minimum needs of the river make it past them, it is lost economic opportunity. The department figures this is the only economics that really matters. Sport fishermen will fish and spend money whether they catch fish or not. For the Dept and state to see money from the comfish industry, fish must be harvested and sold.

    The Comfish industry does not want the sport fish industry to be more efficient or more effective. They like to be able to point to habitat loss supposedly caused by sport fishermen and use it to reduce allocation to the sport fishery, then increase allocation to their fishery. The department obviously is not interested in making the sport fishery more efficient either, or they would support the proposal.

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    Member kenaibow fan's Avatar
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    Steve,
    So if the escapement declines because people are catching more fish you think they will allocate less fish to the commercial guys?

    If this is what your saying, I am not sure it would pan out for sport fish guys. Especially since they manage that run for the comm guys only. Sport guys aren't even an after thought. But if by off chance it gives them less fish I am all for it.

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    Quick question. If true snagging is legalized, who is paying the medical bills for the hooks and weights that are now going to be flung over the shoulders of the fishermen? I know how bad it is with just the regular 'twitch', can't imagine the line to the E.R. with full-body snagging legalized. Think of the children!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak_cowboy View Post
    Quick question. If true snagging is legalized, who is paying the medical bills for the hooks and weights that are now going to be flung over the shoulders of the fishermen? I know how bad it is with just the regular 'twitch', can't imagine the line to the E.R. with full-body snagging legalized. Think of the children!
    I think your maybe being a bit dramatic,, the only change I would support is no change to current tackle rules, but simply retaining reds that are caught, that under current rules would have to be released if not hooked in the mouth.

    Think of the children,, that is a good idea. I saw the extreme disappointment of many this summer when they had to release the red they fought so hard to bring in.

    I don't think this will have any chance of passing, but good to discuss it anyway. The purest will never change their view and the meat anglers will never change theirs.

    Just my nickel worth what you paid for it. Just another point of view, no disrespect intended.
    Last edited by stid2677; 12-10-2013 at 11:33.
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    Member ak_cowboy's Avatar
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    No disrespect taken. I'm just stirring the pot

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    Member Grayling Slayer's Avatar
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    How about retaining all fish hooked forward of the gills? I know many people already play by this rule.
    "I'd rather be fishing!"

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    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Forget the first 3 thing. I'm not keeping a dink or some "red" sockeye. Snaggin' is fine, but not with the first 3 restriction. Imo, flossing is better then the snagging and I'd rather be able to discriminate about which fish I keep. If it wasn't for my dad (non-res) I wouldn't ever fish this sh*t-show anymore. There's WAY better places to fish...

    Tim

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    The purest will never change their view and the meat anglers will never change theirs.
    I don't think the divisions are quite so simple as you portray them here, Steve. I am most certainly a meat angler and not a purist, yet I absolutely believe that legalizing snagging would be harmful to the fish by both increasing the harvest and increasing the number of mortally wounded fish that are not harvested. To my mind it has little to do with being a purist vs. a meat angler.

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    Don't count on me to support a snag fishery down there on the Kenai. Although I like to catch and keep a fish for the table as much as the guy next to me opening the river to snagging is just plain wrong. Even if you keep your first three sockeye or whatever, think of the harm done to other fish? Not sure how many times I've watched guys snag-line sockeye and pull in a trout, stuck right through the belly. Don't think that trout will survive. I've seen that happen so many times. Isn't it just better not to confuse the regs even more and just keep snagging illegal everywhere like it is now. What needs to go in my opinion is that flip and rip mentallity. It's ugly to watch and hate to see all those beautiful fish get ripped apart because of it. Have the cops write out tickets for anyone ripping the water. The state would make a good living on the Kenai in summer!

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    Member Grayling Slayer's Avatar
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    If I mortally hook any fish it's coming home for dinner no matter the letter of the law. I'll pay they're fine on the 1% chance that it comes to that. To release a dead fish to be legal is wanton waste and my ethics trump any regulation.
    "I'd rather be fishing!"

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    Once escapement is hit why not?? Just make it a single hook. I mean really now. One place you can use a 5ft in diameter net and take 50+ if you have a family and the other you can take 3 and it better not be snagged. I don't really care one way or the other as I can get my limit no problem when they are around without keeping snagged fish.

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    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    It would be just like what they do in the lower 48 with Kokanee. Just saying.
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    From the article comments...

    "I happen to be a life long fisherman and do not think snagging is needed. However I have never been able to understand the rationale of turning loose 10-15 sockeye before you catch one in the mouth. Why not keep the first three you catch and be done rather than mutilate or kill a lot of fish to get your three. Is there someone out there that can explain that rule to me?"

    Try a circle hook, folks, and there'll be no need to turn any fish loose.

    This proposal doesn't have a
    snowballs chance in heII of passing. The best hope of ridding the river of the flip'N'rip crowd is to convert them to the virtues of the circle.

    I challenge anyone reading this thread to give it an honest try. You will NEVER go back. Not only will every fish be legally hooked, the circle has a WAY better retention rate than a std octopus hook… they hook and they HOLD!

    Once you experience it for yourself, you'll be eager to share the technique with all your buds.

    I know a number of you have already tried it with success, so spread the word.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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