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Thread: Collapse of Yukon kings...

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Default Collapse of Yukon kings...

    Incredibly sad tale of harvest abuses gone wild.


    There are no H-ydro projects
    H-abitat is intact
    H-atcheries are nonexistent


    and yet the Yukon kings are on a downward spiral toward ESA-listing.


    Nope… H-arvest don't matter a bit.
    Yeah right… GMAB, man.


    Just H-istory repeating itself


    http://peninsulaclarion.com/news/201...he-yukon-kings
    Last edited by Brian M; 11-26-2013 at 12:29.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    Incredibly sad tale of harvest abuses gone wild.


    There are no H-ydro projects
    H-abitat is intact
    H-atcheries are nonexistent


    and yet the Yukon kings are on a downward spiral toward ESA-listing.


    Nope… H-arvest don't matter a bit.
    Yeah right… GMAB, man.


    Just H-istory repeating itself


    http://peninsulaclarion.com/news/201...he-yukon-kings
    Do we really need another thread started on how badly the Alaskan King salmon returns are doing so poorly? Usually it's all about the "Almighty and Important "Kenai River Kings"...sometimes it's the 'dismal' amount of Mat Su Valley King returns, and now it's the lack of Yukon Kings? Well at least it's somewhere elsewhere than the Kenai, where most of the talk about saving King salmon goes on, which in fact is disgusting...as that is not the only river that Kings return ( or used to return ) to in Alaska.
    GMAB dude.
    Last edited by Brian M; 11-26-2013 at 12:29.
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    These threads do nothing to fix the problems, "the man will do nothing as long as money is going into his pocket from certain groups" that I will not go into on here. It is very sad to see every year the numbers dropping more and more. The only thing that I would hope for is the state start setting up more fishery in the near future all over our state. This fish and salmon as a whole play such a large and important part of our lively hood from the consumption to the commercial return. If we do not do something now what is next??? will it be the silvers, reds, who knows but the proof is in the numbers as the years show the numbers are going down. How many big kings do we see getting caught now as compared to 15 years ago 20 years ago I was not here then but I have heard stories from those that were. You don't see those 70,80# anymore will I could go on and on with this but I would just be blowing dust in the wind.

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    Sad to see man has not gotten any smarter, you'd thought by now. Never mind .

    I was thinking,
    What would improve their survivability,reproduction and stamina , but that would involve actually doing something environmentalists will object .
    Sorry for thinking.

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    Question What the H-eck . . . . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    There are no H-ydro projects
    H-abitat is intact
    H-atcheries are nonexistentNope… H-arvest don't matter a bit.
    Just H-istory repeating itself

    Doc . . anyone . .


    . . please translate or explain the cryptographs above . .


    "H-whatever" . . .

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    If you take the Yukon article and plug in Kenai River everyplace the Yukon River is mentioned and replace the negative results of the 8in mesh nets that target the larger Kings and replace it with a high powered sport fishery that has selectively targeted large Kings over the last 30-40 years and add in the powerful guide lobby and their connections with the BOF, governor's office and ADF&G ...then...then...then Walla you have the Kenai River problems in a nutshell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Doc . . anyone . .


    . . please translate or explain the cryptographs above . .


    "H-whatever" . . .


    Marcus - FishDoc is borrowing a phrase from the PNW regarding the factors for decline of Pacific salmon (which are also the elements of recovery).

    We used to express them as the 4-H's, meaning Habitat, Hydropower, Hatcheries, and Harvest. We don't express them as 4-H's anymore given the complaints from the real 4-H organization (think 10 year old girls learning about Head, Heart, Hands, Health). Now we use the expression "All H", which is intended to include all factors/elements of salmon recovery. FishDoc was indicating that the only All-H factor at work in the decline of Yukon River Chinook is harvest, despite some confusing sarcasm.

    Yes, harvest does matter. I'm not sure exactly where it is occurring. Seems unlikely that in-river harvest would be a huge factor given that Yukon River Chinook have been harvested by subsistence users for centuries. Perhaps the number and effectivness of those subsistence users has increased. My sense is that ocean conditions are becoming less productive, and ocean harvest (by-catch and targeted fishery) may be higher than anticipated.

    I would also point to the Karluk and the Ayakulik River on Kodiak Island. The Chinook salmon in both these rivers are in serious trouble. The Ayakulik has not met escapement goals for the past 6-7 years. Those rivers are located in wilderness areas on Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge. None of the H's apply to these stocks, with the possible exception of ocean harvest. In-river harvest by all users has been eliminated. Still, the stocks are in trouble. Not sure why.

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    Wink Cryptography . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    . . Seems unlikely that in-river harvest would be a huge factor given that Yukon River Chinook have been harvested by subsistence users for centuries. Perhaps the number and effectivness of those subsistence users has increased. My sense is that ocean conditions are becoming less productive, and ocean harvest (by-catch and targeted fishery) may be higher than anticipated. . .

    Thanks for the explanation, Cohoangler . . we Alaskans are not up on such caustic cryptography and acrimonious acronyms.


    As for "harvest," . . hey, what can we say? If you've a favorite hobby-horse . .


    . . ride that sucker hard and put 'em away wet . .


    . . as long as "harvest" doesn't include the harvest of catch-and-release, that is . .


    . . honestly, such special-pleading gets more pathetically transparent every day . .

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    My apologies to FishDoc. I replied to Marcus before reading the PC article.

    I know there are always two sides to every story, but it would be hard to find a more irresponsible set of actions than what has taken place on the Yukon. Before reading the article I couldn't imagine an ESA listing for Yukon River, but as I see it, that is not an unreasonable outcome. As I see it, there is only one factor for decline. It's not hard to figure out.

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    I'm not sure you can rule out habitat degradation in the Yukon drainage, what with the prevalency of jet boats and other shallow-water craft....there's one forum member here I dearly get a kick out of, but I cringe every time he refers to his surface-drive motor as his "gravel auger".

    "Jet boaters please take note

    by Marg Evans

    The Horsefly, Mitchell, Chilko, Chilcotin, and Quesnel rivers, and their tributaries, provide critical spawning, rearing, and foraging habitat for many fish species. These include kokanee, sockeye, chinook, coho, and large rainbow and bull trout.

    Surveys have shown that juvenile fish are dying in large numbers after being washed up and stranded on sandbars and mud flats. The disturbance is caused by the passage of large boats, including jet boats.

    Wake and bottom pressure from boats also increase streambank erosion, disrupt spawning adults, and increase the mortality of incubating eggs. Boat wake stirs up sediment, which can smother incubating eggs and food sources, and even damage gills. One large wake can kill extensive numbers of fry and/or eggs in just one pass, resulting in extremely reduced future runs.

    Keeping jet boats away from sensitive river areas seems to be the only answer.

    The Cariboo Chilcotin Conservation Society has been working over the past year and a half to raise public awareness about the impacts on fish from jet boats travelling over sensitive habitat.

    We have put advertisements in the B.C. Freshwater Fishing Regulations Synopsis and the Cariboo-Chilcotin Fishing Guide. Through a BC Parks Centennial grant, we also placed site-specific signage in critical areas at the mouth of Mitchell River and at the docks in Likely and the Elysia Resort from which most boaters head out onto Quesnel Lake. The Georgia Strait Alliance has also come on board and included the issue in its Green Boating classes, a wonderful support.

    With increased awareness, we hope to get boaters involved in protection of these rich waterways."


    http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sep-pmv...2-eng.html#jet
    "– Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

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    Here's a 2005 study from Yukon Territory that identifies factors that may be impacting salmon stocks/ habitat on the upper Yukon, including, yes, large-mesh gillnet fishing in Alaska, but also climate change, forestry, a dam, mining, parasites, and jet-boat use:
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...MUZZCtV-ZDsFuQ
    "– Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Doc . . anyone . .


    . . please translate or explain the cryptographs above . .


    "H-whatever" . . .
    As someone who quotes Dave Montgomery on an almost daily basis, I figured you of all folks would have that one down.

    His book re-iterates the evil 4-H's that have plagued salmon populations in the PNW.
    He devotes an entire chapter to the 5th H.... H-istory.

    The call is to heed the lessons of the past.

    Harvest abuses were the first and most significant H to decimate the unfathomable abundance of PNW salmon populations. As it was for Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) on the East Coast of N America. As it was for the S salar throughout Europe


    Just the same old history repeating itself in new places with new faces.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    Smile Just say "no" . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    As someone who quotes Dave Montgomery on an almost daily basis, I figured you of all folks would have that one down.

    His book re-iterates the evil 4-H's that have plagued salmon populations in the PNW.

    He devotes an entire chapter to the 5th H.... H-istory.

    The call is to heed the lessons of the past.

    Harvest abuses were the first and most significant H to decimate the unfathomable abundance of PNW salmon populations.

    Just the same old history repeating itself in new places with new faces.



    Thanks for the explanation, Doc . . been a long time since I read Dave . .


    You are correct . . harvest abuse was the first factor in the decline of PNW fisheries though far from the most significant, long-term. Moreover, harvest abuse is easily corrected . . just stop harvesting by bonking and/or by catch-and-release.


    Habitat is another issue altogether . . much harder to reverse . . and by far the most egregious factor in fish decline, long term . . once folks get addicted to cheap electricity and the benefits of big city life, they're not as easily persuaded to give it up for a few more fish.


    As for the Yukon and milking that fishery for bad news, so far we've heard one aspect of a very big and complicated story . . and as has been suggested here, there's more to it than that . . there always is. Have you ever considered taking a couple weeks during king season, fishing the Yukon instead of the Kenai, and checking things out for yourself?


    Happy Thanksgiving . .



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    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    My apologies to FishDoc. I replied to Marcus before reading the PC article.

    I know there are always two sides to every story, but it would be hard to find a more irresponsible set of actions than what has taken place on the Yukon. Before reading the article I couldn't imagine an ESA listing for Yukon River, but as I see it, that is not an unreasonable outcome. As I see it, there is only one factor for decline. It's not hard to figure out.


    Be sure to read the comments following the Clarion article, Cohoangler . . there's more than just two sides to this story . .GMADGB . . Click image for larger version. 

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    We drove up to Dawson City a couple years back and spent a few days there . . according to the locals, there are more people crawling around in those hills now than there ever were during the height of the gold rush.


    Happy Thanksgiving . . .

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    Thanks Marcus. I read the comments. Indeed, I decided to read the entire series of articles in the PC on Chinook salmon stocks in the Great Land.

    Alot of folks who are commenting on the articles decry the lack of reporting on specific stocks, gear types, historic fisheries, etc. That is reasonable, but journalists need to target a non-technical audience, and they need to make it understandable. In that regard, the PC has done a great job of covering the issues and concerns. I'm anixous to read the remainder of the series.

    I have no doubt that ocean conditions have undercut the productivity of the Chinook salmon stocks, but when harvest is higher than it should be, the information on the status of the stocks is questionable, and the political pressure to keep fishing is high, it's easy to see how those stocks can collapse. Likewise, I agree that over-harvest can be corrected, provided the habitat is in good shape (which it is in the Great Land). However, rebuilding Pacific salmon stocks takes time, patience, sacrifice, and fortitude. Those commodities are in short supply just about everywhere......

    In my view, the PC series on Kenai River Chinook should be re-published in every newspaper in Alaska and the PNW. In doing so, I'm hoping the good people of the Great Land will come to understand that their stocks of Pacific salmon are NOT immune to the forces that have lead to their collapse elsewhere on this planet. Maybe they already do, but sometimes I have my doubts.

    I realize my words may cause some folks to react negativily. I understand. These issues are not for the timid.

    Lastly - Happy Thanksgiving to you and everyone else on this BB.

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    Thumbs up Good, responsible journalism is not dead . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    Thanks Marcus. I read the comments. Indeed, I decided to read the entire series of articles in the PC on Chinook salmon stocks in the Great Land.

    Alot of folks who are commenting on the articles decry the lack of reporting on specific stocks, gear types, historic fisheries, etc. That is reasonable, but journalists need to target a non-technical audience, and they need to make it understandable. In that regard, the PC has done a great job of covering the issues and concerns. I'm anixous to read the remainder of the series.

    I have no doubt that ocean conditions have undercut the productivity of the Chinook salmon stocks, but when harvest is higher than it should be, the information on the status of the stocks is questionable, and the political pressure to keep fishing is high, it's easy to see how those stocks can collapse. Likewise, I agree that over-harvest can be corrected, provided the habitat is in good shape (which it is in the Great Land). However, rebuilding Pacific salmon stocks takes time, patience, sacrifice, and fortitude. Those commodities are in short supply just about everywhere......

    In my view, the PC series on Kenai River Chinook should be re-published in every newspaper in Alaska and the PNW. In doing so, I'm hoping the good people of the Great Land will come to understand that their stocks of Pacific salmon are NOT immune to the forces that have lead to their collapse elsewhere on this planet. Maybe they already do, but sometimes I have my doubts.

    I realize my words may cause some folks to react negativily. I understand. These issues are not for the timid. Fire away.........

    Lastly - Happy Thanksgiving to you and everyone else on this BB.



    Totally agree, Cohoangler, and I'm very proud of our home-town newspaper's journalism in the highest sense of that word. While simple minds want simple answers, the Clarion hasn't succumbed to dumbing-down its writing even while aiming at a popular audience. Much more can and needs to be said . . the Clarion is leading the way in the finest tradition of American newspapers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    Marcus - FishDoc is borrowing a phrase from the PNW regarding the factors for decline of Pacific salmon (which are also the elements of recovery).

    We used to express them as the 4-H's, meaning Habitat, Hydropower, Hatcheries, and Harvest. We don't express them as 4-H's anymore given the complaints from the real 4-H organization (think 10 year old girls learning about Head, Heart, Hands, Health). Now we use the expression "All H", which is intended to include all factors/elements of salmon recovery. FishDoc was indicating that the only All-H factor at work in the decline of Yukon River Chinook is harvest, despite some confusing sarcasm.

    Yes, harvest does matter. I'm not sure exactly where it is occurring. Seems unlikely that in-river harvest would be a huge factor given that Yukon River Chinook have been harvested by subsistence users for centuries. Perhaps the number and effectivness of those subsistence users has increased. My sense is that ocean conditions are becoming less productive, and ocean harvest (by-catch and targeted fishery) may be higher than anticipated.

    I would also point to the Karluk and the Ayakulik River on Kodiak Island. The Chinook salmon in both these rivers are in serious trouble. The Ayakulik has not met escapement goals for the past 6-7 years. Those rivers are located in wilderness areas on Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge. None of the H's apply to these stocks, with the possible exception of ocean harvest. In-river harvest by all users has been eliminated. Still, the stocks are in trouble. Not sure why.
    I have some friends that work on the Yukon and Kuskokwim every year and they all have mentioned the same thing. Technology has dramatically changed the way people fish on the Yukon and Kuskokwim. Currently with better cell phone reception available, when kings hit the river at the lower fishing sites, people now jump on facebook, text, or call via smartphones to let people know upstream when pulses or schools are moving through and then everyone scrambles to their respective site. Fishing sites that were occupied for weeks at a time are now only occupied when the call comes in. Along with other forms of technology, these migratory fish are being tracked VERY efficiently in the present day fishery.
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    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    I think we are at a very critical point with respect to the Yukon river King salmon. Talks are taking place right now.
    http://yukon-news.com/news/chinook-n...ue-to-plummet/
    There is the usual cross border wranglings, but really, both sides need, no MUST shut down ALL King fishing in the Yukon drainage. Period.
    Ultimately, as in all wildlife management issues, the health of the resource absolutely must come before all other concerns regardless of cross border issues.
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    I pray there will come a day when ALL user groups realize that the resource must come first if it is going to survive and recover.
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