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Thread: Illegal Moose Hunting in Denali

  1. #1

    Default Illegal Moose Hunting in Denali

    I thought I saw another thread on this previously, but can't find it now.

    Here is the latest story on this that appears to shed a lot more light on what happened: http://www.adn.com/2013/11/25/319746...lls-story.html

    If what is stated in the article is correct, it goes far beyond just simply making a minor mistake with a boundary. They apparently knew where the boundary was simply by the fact that they made a point to drag BOTH moose back across the line into the private property to make it appear legal. That on top of illegal hunting methods (electronic call). Sounds like the first guy got off with barely a slap on the wrist. Will be interesting to see if the others get more and what other information may be realized as they plea out.

  2. #2

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    The initial news account of this case stated that one of the four was also charged with possession of an unregistered silencer. That's a whole bigger deal than the misdemeanor game violations. It's punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and/or ten years in a federal prison 26 USC 5871. Lying to a fed is also a felony 18 USC 1001 and it's frequently used in conspiracy cases and the like to convince one or more participants to roll over on the other(s).

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    Member PacWestFishTaxidermy's Avatar
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    My corrupt government and my inept wildlife management agency and my out of control state law enforcement entity force me to become less and less outraged by citizens breaking game rules and game laws. I don't condone poaching, but they will get in plenty of trouble for this and I bet Denali can do without a few moose. Some people on here will call for the death penalty no doubt. So be it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PacWestFishTaxidermy View Post
    My corrupt government and my inept wildlife management agency and my out of control state law enforcement entity force me to become less and less outraged by citizens breaking game rules and game laws. I don't condone poaching, but they will get in plenty of trouble for this and I bet Denali can do without a few moose. Some people on here will call for the death penalty no doubt. So be it.
    Naw death penalty should only be for crimes involving taking the lives of people.
    BUT, if as reported they knowingly crossed into the park, shot 2 moose in illegal areas on 2 different "hunts", then drug them back across the line (using 4 wheelers in a no-vehicle area) to gut them (proving they knew exactly what they were doing), using illegal means (electronic caller) & one man who did not shoot one of the moose tagged it, they should hammer them with a big hammer.
    Crossing an imaginary line by mistake is one thing. This is another.
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    Naw death penalty should only be for crimes involving taking the lives of people.
    BUT, if as reported they knowingly crossed into the park, shot 2 moose in illegal areas on 2 different "hunts", then drug them back across the line (using 4 wheelers in a no-vehicle area) to gut them (proving they knew exactly what they were doing), using illegal means (electronic caller) & one man who did not shoot one of the moose tagged it, they should hammer them with a big hammer.
    Crossing an imaginary line by mistake is one thing. This is another.
    Yeah, but the gubmnt's corrupt and inept and out of control, and there's too many moose in the park anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Yeah, but the gubmnt's corrupt and inept and out of control,
    So tell us somethin' new why don't ya....
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    How dare they poach the King's deer!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
    How dare they poach the King's deer!
    I don't get it. They didn't make a mistake, fessed up and then got heavy handed punishment for a minor violation.

    They clearly intentionally shot moose outside the boundaries of their hunting area (oh, an area completely unhunted), dragged them back to the private land, and tried to get away with it. I can't believe they got away with such a slap on the wrist. A few more years hunting ban and a fine equal to a fully guided moose hunt in a trophy area (like $10,000 a piece) would seem more appropriate.

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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GD Yankee View Post
    I don't get it. They didn't make a mistake, fessed up and then got heavy handed punishment for a minor violation.

    They clearly intentionally shot moose outside the boundaries of their hunting area (oh, an area completely unhunted), dragged them back to the private land, and tried to get away with it. I can't believe they got away with such a slap on the wrist. A few more years hunting ban and a fine equal to a fully guided moose hunt in a trophy area (like $10,000 a piece) would seem more appropriate.
    Assuming of course, you agree with the whole precept of federal theft of Alaskan land (I don't). Except for the attempt to pull the moose back across the line, I'd give them props for the civil disobedience. Remember the campfires, shooting, etc following ANILCA? They are guilty of breaking laws that I think are unjust and illegal in the first place.
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    Member GD Yankee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
    Assuming of course, you agree with the whole precept of federal theft of Alaskan land (I don't). Except for the attempt to pull the moose back across the line, I'd give them props for the civil disobedience. Remember the campfires, shooting, etc following ANILCA? They are guilty of breaking laws that I think are unjust and illegal in the first place.
    If you're going to commit civil disobedience, you have to be willing to take the punishment. The only people who have a claim to "theft" of land are the native tribes. The state was purchased by the Federal government - "Seward's Folly" - from Russia.

    I can see where you're going: you want to pick and choose your "unjust and illegal" laws. I have seen places on earth where individuals decide to pick and choose (and enforce) the laws they prefer. Mogadishu and Afghanistan.

    They knew the laws and knowingly broke them. They are giving the finger to the rest of us who obey the laws. There are advocacy groups who attempt to influence laws and regulations. There are people and groups who purposely violate laws and regulations. They are called criminals. Or in this case, poachers who shot OUR deer.

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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    I've seen those places too, live and in color. I believe that one law supersedes all others. That is the Constitution. Particularly the 10th amendment in this case. When Congress accepted our statehood, sovereignty comes with it, regardless of who purchased the land initially. I know that case law in history disagrees with me, but it is what it is -SCOTUS makes mistakes too.

    My initial comment was meant as a flippant remark with a little bit of irony thrown in... Not meant to stir up a political debate... I've said my peace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
    I've seen those places too, live and in color. I believe that one law supersedes all others. That is the Constitution. Particularly the 10th amendment in this case. When Congress accepted our statehood, sovereignty comes with it, regardless of who purchased the land initially. I know that case law in history disagrees with me, but it is what it is -SCOTUS makes mistakes too.

    My initial comment was meant as a flippant remark with a little bit of irony thrown in... Not meant to stir up a political debate... I've said my peace.
    I think these guys attitude points out that they would have broken anybody's rules. The state has excepted what the feds are doing in the park so they are giving the feds authority to manage.
    Vance in AK.

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    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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    Member PacWestFishTaxidermy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GD Yankee View Post
    If you're going to commit civil disobedience, you have to be willing to take the punishment. The only people who have a claim to "theft" of land are the native tribes. The state was purchased by the Federal government - "Seward's Folly" - from Russia.

    I can see where you're going: you want to pick and choose your "unjust and illegal" laws. I have seen places on earth where individuals decide to pick and choose (and enforce) the laws they prefer. Mogadishu and Afghanistan.

    They knew the laws and knowingly broke them. They are giving the finger to the rest of us who obey the laws. There are advocacy groups who attempt to influence laws and regulations. There are people and groups who purposely violate laws and regulations. They are called criminals. Or in this case, poachers who shot OUR deer.
    1) Almost everyone on this forum is a veteran or active duty. Your'e overseas experiences are not unique here.
    2) If you think natives deserve to be perpetual victims, you are part of the problem. We saved Alaskan natives from being Russian slaves and gave them human rights, medicine, technology and liberty. Also, not a single native alive today had any land stolen from them
    3) If you think Alaskan moose belong to all of us and are "our deer," you have fallen for Fish & Game propaganda. They tell people that all game belongs to "us" so we will consider their authority harmless and helpful when it is clear that money and special preference are their guiding management principles.

    I don't condone breaking laws or poaching, but we are all just one catastrophe away from doing what it takes to provide for our families,so a little perspective and context wouldn't hurt in cases like this instead of metaphorically calling for the hanging judge.

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    I think these guys attitude points out that they would have broken anybody's rules. The state has excepted what the feds are doing in the park so they are giving the feds authority to manage.
    You are right. And while I resent federal oversight and management of Alaska's resources, I'm not going to go looking for trouble with the feds. That is a losing game. Sounds like these guys had a wonderful hunting venue and they blew it by using illegal methods and violating known boundaries. They were stupid and will pay the price.

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    Member cdubbin's Avatar
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    Denali Park provides a unique opportunity for folks who would otherwise never get to see a moose....or wolf, brown bear, caribou, dall sheep, etc., the chance to do so. These folks get a glimpse of what the rest of us got here, and become a bit more invested in protecting it. It matters. Throw the book at these goons.
    " Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

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    Derek Hart was subcontracting for me on Wednesday and I chatted with him for a minute about all this. He couldn't share any real details because it's an ongoing court case but I will pass on the "advice" he gave me to you guys.

    1.) If any of you have the privilege of hunting Denali on the private lands via lottery or landowner permission, take every effort to conceal the fact that you are hunting, especially if you are successful. The tourists and non-resident seasonal workers have been deceived into thinking that there is no hunting of any form allowed anywhere within the park boundaries and that to do so is a giant federal felony. If you visually broadcast your success, the authorities may receive hundreds of calls about "poachers" regardless of the fact that you are allowed to hunt in certain specific areas. This false idea has set so strongly in many of these people's minds that tour bus operators may use their bus to block the road in an attempt to trap "criminals" and not let them get away. Derek's personal advice to me: "Don't hunt anywhere within 100 miles of any friggin national park, ever. Just go somewhere else"

    2.) Check your self and check your partners, bring 3 copies of the regulations and read every d*** word of every page and make sure everyone in your camp is aware and complying with every freaking possible regulation that does or could apply to you. Don't assume that somebody else knows what is or is not legal. Police your own. Because of the enormous amount of regulations, many of us are probably guilty of some sort of violation. Make every effort to eliminate these because once the feds start an investigation with their unlimited amount of time, money, resources and power, it's likely they will find any real violation in their search for imaginary ones and once they do, they've got you.

    Individual hunters: It's YOUR responsibility to keep headlines like this out of the paper. Learn from others mistakes, if possible, and don't be afraid to be the control-freak, a-hole who is all up in everybody's business, making sure they know what rules they need to comply with. Do your hunt prep months in advance and account for EVERYTHING and if it comes down to it, walk away from the hunt before it goes south.

    I expect this will get wrapped up fairly soon. Small business owners don't have the money to pay the kind of lawyer it would take to fight this out.
    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    Member highestview's Avatar
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    I've worked with Derek and his dad Charlie for a while and used to go to church with Mike Barth. Based on what I know of them, I don't buy the paper's story that much. I get the impression it was a legal hunt where avoidable mistakes were made and the feds got involved because of the pinko's ignorance of legal hunting in the park. Once the fed's decide they're going to make an example of you, you're hosed and there's nothing you can do about it.
    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    Wow. I really hope that was satirical...


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    Highest, it almost seems from what you've said that the ADN and other news sources have an agenda against hunting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    Highest, it almost seems from what you've said that the ADN and other news sources have an agenda against hunting...
    If this comes a suprise....you have been playing ostritch with your head in the sand.
    BK

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