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Thread: 747 landing mistake

  1. #1

    Default 747 landing mistake

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...11142064667958 basically he got lost and landed at an airport in Kansas about the size of Homer not the airforce base he was supposed to. The funny being when the crew called the tower for taxi instructions and the tower says...'uh, you are not here'
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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    Seems C-17's don't have a corner on shenanigans.

    Here's the tower audio

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fjPx...ature=youtu.be
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    "Giant 4241 standby one, let me check the sectional for you..."

    All the technology in the world can not replace the value of carrying and knowing how to read a paper chart.
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    Member BeaverDriver's Avatar
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    Pretty easy to do in a heavy. Not so easy to circle and look for the name on the water tower. Non- precision approach, break out and see lights oriented the same direction you expect to land (this is called 'expectancy error') - figure you are high due to the non-precision.

    Has happened many times before.

    Lots of blame to go around here. I would not be so quick to crap on the pilots - especially if you have never flown that particular - VERY noisy airplane, into that particular place, late at night after possibly a LOOOOONG duty day (remember no FAR 117 for Cargo pilots).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverDriver View Post
    Pretty easy to do in a heavy. Not so easy to circle and look for the name on the water tower. Non- precision approach, break out and see lights oriented the same direction you expect to land (this is called 'expectancy error') - figure you are high due to the non-precision.

    Has happened many times before.

    Lots of blame to go around here. I would not be so quick to crap on the pilots - especially if you have never flown that particular - VERY noisy airplane, into that particular place, late at night after possibly a LOOOOONG duty day (remember no FAR 117 for Cargo pilots).

    You want to blame all the electronic gadgets that these pilots clearly were not bothering to look at and interpret? Then how about a crew that didn't recognize a short runway when they finally saw it? If you don't want to blame the pilots, I guess you could always blame former President Bush ........................

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    Member BeaverDriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly 2 View Post

    You want to blame all the electronic gadgets that these pilots clearly were not bothering to look at and interpret? Then how about a crew that didn't recognize a short runway when they finally saw it? If you don't want to blame the pilots, I guess you could always blame former President Bush ........................
    Oh Please. Perhaps you should walk a mile in their shoes. First off these crews do not have sectionals. They are totally IFR. Second it was a non-precision approach at night. Approach speed is close to 200 Knots at that point. They saw a bright set of lights for Runway 18 at AAO (the runway at McConnal AFB is 19). They reacted.

    I challenge you to tell me the length of a runway while the nose of your airplane is pitched up almost 10 degrees, at night, with the runway lights on bright and a 200 knots closure speed, all while running checklists and configuring the airplane. Good luck. Knowing those two I doubt they would comment on your bounced landing on floats or big tires - because they have no frame of reference.

    All I said was until one has flown that airplane, into that situation, he only demonstrate his ignorance by the complete indictment of the crew. And the Bush comment further cements that, for you, in my mind.

    From:





    http://www.thirdamendment.com/wrongway.html

    Jol A. Silversmith (June 2004; last updated November 2013)

    On June 19, 2004, a Northwest Airlines A319, bound for Rapid City, South Dakota (RAP), mistakenly landed at nearby Ellsworth Air Force Base. Although this incident received extensive media coverage, aviators have been landing aircraft at wrong airports since at least Douglas "Wrong Way" Corrigan flew to Ireland instead of California (although his flight is widely regarded to have been an intentional stunt).

    Despite the tremendous advances in navigational technology since 1938, such incidents continue to occur - most often when two airfields are located in close proximity, and a pilot relies on what he sees out the cockpit window rather than his instruments and charts (although air traffic control sometimes shares at least some of the blame).

    This website briefly summarizes previous "wrong way" landings by commercial airliners, not including deliberate/emergency landings; landings on the wrong runway at the correct airport; and approaches aborted before the wheels touched the runway - the latter two of which, at least, would markedly increase the length of the list! (For example, two recently publicized incidents of aborted approaches are an Air Canada A319, which on August 23, 2003 aborted an approach to Vernon instead of Kelowna, British Columbia, and a Britannia Airways 757, which on September 18, 2000 aborted an approach to wrong airport in Tonsberg, Norway.)

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no single source for this information. However, an October 14, 1973 article in the Los Angeles Times, “Wrong-Airport Landings: the Pilots Blush,” asserts that “Federal Aviation Administration statisticians list some two dozen wrong-airport landings by airliners in the last five years.” Additionally, a 1988 article published by the Flight Safety Foundation lists various airports at which air carriers had made approaches or landings, relying on an unpublished NTSB report, but does not identify specific incidents. See http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_mar88.pdf.

    "Wrong way" incidents often receive at least brief mention in the media, and some are entered into the NTSB accident database. When possible, I have provided a link to an online account of each incident. Additions and corrections are always appreciated.

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    unacceptable.... period

    At what point does it go from being just a boo -boo that anyone could have done to being something sacrilege?
    If you agree that these boys could have just as easily had hundreds of souls on board and went wheels down on an unknown surface
    and still do not seek to condemn this action, then you either value human life far less than I, or have a different definition of responsibility, than I. Either way, in this case, I would value someone else's 'ignorance' over your lack of appreciation for the magnitude of this error, and the tremendous stroke of luck that this went as well as it did.

    Take care, Rob

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    Member BeaverDriver's Avatar
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    As i said - and not to belittle anyone's experience; But until you have actually flown this airplane, in this situation, you have no idea what you are commenting on (or condemning as unacceptable). This is not the first case, nor will it be the last, where complicated systems, and systemic ATC (and other) problems or issues will cause an incident such as this. This is the basic premise of "threat error management."

    I don't comment on any ag-plane accidents as I have no ag flying experience, nor any experience in a Thrush or Air Tractor. It all seems so simple when you are in a super-cub or 180 just cruising around. I think we have to acknowledge that sometimes it just ain't that simple.

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    I didn't mention Sectional Charts. I made reference only to what the hell those pilots were looking at through the front windshield and the side windows of their front office. And if you can't tell the length of a lighted runway, even through rain or snow, I hope you always have another rated pilot in the right seat!

    One of you should be visual, and one of you should be in the gauges. Or did that slip someone's attention, too ??? Try hard to avoid being too "politically correct" here. That airplane was functioning as it should have been, but the crew clearly was not. That's called pilot error in my experience, which is considerable. And it wasn't all earned in Super Cubs and C-180s . . . . .


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    Here is the audio from the incident.

    They remained confused following the landing....for awhile...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fjPx...ature=youtu.be
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverDriver View Post
    As i said - and not to belittle anyone's experience; But until you have actually flown this airplane, in this situation, you have no idea what you are commenting on (or condemning as unacceptable). This is not the first case, nor will it be the last, where complicated systems, and systemic ATC (and other) problems or issues will cause an incident such as this. This is the basic premise of "threat error management."
    Do you seriously propose to blame this on "complicated systems, and systemic ATC"? And what does the complexity of the cockpit, or experience with the aircraft have to do with failing to do any sort of pre-flight planning and familiarization with the area you intend to fly into? Does the fact that you're going to be piloting a 747 under an IFR plan preclude or release you from the obligation to perform basic flight planning? If you were going to fly any aircraft (let alone a 747) into this:
    Wichita.jpg
    for the first time, wouldn't you want to have some sort of clue about the area before jumping in the cockpit? What kind of pilot says "it's not my fault I landed at the wrong airport"??
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    I would have to agree on the non-precision approach part. That is about as non-precision as you can get... Two pilots and ten miles off course to the wrong runway. Anybody actually looking at the approach on the screen in front of your face? This is supposed to be a regular stop, to drop these huge sections of 787s off...the database should have the right airport loaded into it right? How do you then fly the approach to the wrong airport?

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    Member BeaverDriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Do you seriously propose to blame this on "complicated systems, and systemic ATC"? And what does the complexity of the cockpit, or experience with the aircraft have to do with failing to do any sort of pre-flight planning and familiarization with the area you intend to fly into? Does the fact that you're going to be piloting a 747 under an IFR plan preclude or release you from the obligation to perform basic flight planning? If you were going to fly any aircraft (let alone a 747) into this:
    Wichita.jpg
    for the first time, wouldn't you want to have some sort of clue about the area before jumping in the cockpit? What kind of pilot says "it's not my fault I landed at the wrong airport"??

    Don't propose to "Blame it" on anyone. What I have said consistently is that unless you have flown this airplane, into this airport, you cannot even begin to understand the issues, let along critique the pilots. I have, in fact, flown this very airplane, into this very airport, on the same approach. I can see how easy this mistake can happen. Yes there should be ATC back up. Yes the GPS approach should be followed - until the runway is in sight. Did they make a mistake - sure. Was there systemic problems that lead them into this corner? Absolutely. In any incident or accident there is most often a chain of events. A trail that, if broken at any point, would lead to a better outcome. In this case, all the backups appear to have failed - including the pilots and ATC.

    But for a super cub pilot or even an Ag-pilot to make a statement that it is 100% the pilots fault - and that it is "unacceptable - period" is ridiculous.

    My thought was "there but for the grace of God go I."

    Comments, like "one should monitor the approach and one look outside" just demonstrate how much you do not know about flying heavies or even multi-crew aircraft, and indeed you make the entire profession a worse place because of your clueless statement.

    fini

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    Okay, BeaverDrive, I'll concede that you know pretty much all there is to know about flying. Can you tell us who among the crew is supposed to be looking at the outside environment; and at what point? Surely the airplane wasn't landing itself at the wrong airport, so who do you suppose was tasked with "steering" the danged thing during its short final approach? And, according to the regulations you flew your heavy iron under, the captain must surely have been into the intended airport several times before?

    Since that panel, jam-packed with its sophisticated electronics [which had led them successfully to Kansas in general and to Wichita specifically] clearly didn't exhibit a complete electrical failure, backups included, surely someone on that crew might have noticed that something was a little out of whack. I agree that a knee-jerk reaction to an appraisal of what may have gone amiss is not an acceptable method of assigning blame, but what reason other than pilot error can you possibly extend for this incident? The crew should be very happy that Wichita wasn't the only carrier on the sea at the time . . . . .

    It gives me a little jolt to read that your flying relies so heavily upon the "grace of God". It would seem safer to rely upon your own skill level, especially since you're still flying with other live souls aboard.




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    I think it is actually encouraging to see an event that, despite being a mistake, illustrates that the pilots are capable of flying the airplane. After the Asiana debacle, one wonders how many pilots of heavies can actually fly. But these guys were on a visual, lined up, landed on a much shorter than anticipated field, and did so with remarkable (though mis-placed) precision such that there was no damage (apparently) to people or the airplane. So they landed in the wrong place...I have no experience at 200 kts, at night, over lighted terrain, so I have nothing to say there. But by golly, they landed the plane. The computer sure wasn't going to do it, not at that location. So we pretty well know these guys can fly the plane. That is encouraging.
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    This has happened at least 22 times at Jabara airport. The runway at Jabara is more aligned with the GPS/RNAV approach to IAB than McConnell's runway. The final approach course on the RNAV approach is 186 dgrees. The runway at Jabara is 181 degrees and the runway at McConnell is 192 degrees. And in fact there is a point on this approach when you cannot see McConnell, but you CAN see Jabara - depending on the winds it might be worse. Jabara is mentioned in the FLIP and 10-9 JEPP page as a caution, but there is no depiction of where it is relative to McConnell.

    There is a good chance neither of the crew had been into this airport before.

    None of us were there, none of us know what the electronics was saying. None of us know when they went visual. Perhaps it would be good for all of us to wait for the NTSB report on this? There will be QAR data to aid their investigation.

    Guess that is what I am saying. Instead of hammering the crew immediately, lets all wait and see what the investigation reveals.

    What is an issue, in my mind, is this. IF this has happened 22 times before, you would think ATC would be closely watching any arrivals via this approach. I have flown many times into a Military airfield where the controllers issued an altitude alert for a few feet below the glidepath or glideslope.

    Just like any other incident or accident there is a chain of events that leads to it.

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    Beaverdriver,

    Ever notice how when a pilot makes a mistake, its the same guys on here bad-mouthing them. "The e-Experts"
    And they don't need no stinking NTSB report!
    Take it with a grain of salt, man. You can't win.....there's no "truth" button on the internet.

    Sometimes its like the ADN comment section. Funny to watch but you feel silly for looking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverDriver View Post
    ......I would not be so quick to crap on the pilots.... -
    Nothin' new here.....people pretty much crap on everybody around here.....hunters, trappers, fishermen, guides, non-residents, newbes, etc... So as you might imagine, pilots won't be excluded in the least.........lol
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    This has happened at least 22 times at Jabara airport.
    WOW! Sounds like a long standing problem for sure.....being addressed with typical federal diligence.

    The part that I like about the whole story is how they flew that big girl back out of there...

    That is the part I would like to see on video!

    I wonder how much runway they needed?
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    "Hammering on the pilots"? There's no question here that this is pilot error. And there are valuable lessons to be learned from it. I would wager that if the pilots were in on this conversation, they would have said right up front "we F'd up, no question about it", and then they would go on to elaborate in great detail all the things they did wrong, beginning with their pre-flight (or lack thereof). I'm pretty sure they will learn from this incident, and never forget it. I would bet that they would not for a moment propose to pass the blame off on the complexity of the cockpit, or the airspace, or ATC, or how "LOUD" the aircraft is. The contention here, 4mer, is not so much with the 747 drivers, but with the guys who rather than approaching an incident or accident as an opportunity to evaluate and learn, for their own benefit and the benefit of others, immediately start throwing out lame excuses for why it couldn't possibly be pilot error; and anybody who dares discuss such a thing is quickly ridiculed and labeled with the following kinds of statements: "Ever notice how when a pilot makes a mistake, its the same guys on here bad-mouthing them." ...I might not be afraid to fly with the 747 drivers in the future, but I would sure as heck think more than twice about flying with anyone who's first response to an incident is to make excuses, and deny that the poor pilots couldn't possibly be at fault.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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