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Thread: DA versus SA

  1. #1
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    Default DA versus SA

    Is a Single Action revolver, a bad Idea for Bear Defense? Is it too slow, in your opinion?

    Why do most choose DA over SA?

    If you have a DA, do you consider that an advantage?

    My S&W 44 Mag. is DA, and it's only purpose is Bear Protection. HOWEVER, I usually shoot it SA, and if a bear jumped me, I would probably, automatically, even in my stress, shoot SA.

    I see little advantage then, in the DA, for ME. I spose it could be a few milliseconds faster if I was that cozy with said bear.

    Now, the Big Questions, or the ones Most Pertinent. How many of you guys, n gals, shoot your Beeg Boomers, DA? If a bear got after you would you shoot DA, or SA, like I probably would, or consult the bear for his preference?

    It has come to my attention, that them bars have collectively decided on a new offensive, against those who would do them harm, including those who think they are "Gentle", like ole Ben.

    The likelyhood is, that there will be few aggressive measures in evidence until Spring, due to the fact that, by now, most have chosen to sleep on the decision. This gives us time to prepare, for whatever they might have in store. As always, it is prudent for us to use that time wisely.

    Thanks for your indulgence.
    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    It has come to my attention, that them bars have collectively decided on a new offensive, against those who would do them harm
    "Who is to say that bears won't suddenly go on a a rampage tomorrow? I mean, it's not like the bears have signed a peace treaty." -Bill Bryson from 'A Walk In The Woods'

    (You should read it, or listen to it as an audio book; you'll probably find it pretty amusing.)

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    The single action pistol is the fastest firing of all handguns up to six rounds..I shoot my DA's in SA mode most of the time and feel plenty safe with either.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    The DA is very fast as proven by Ed McGivern. 5 shots in under 1/2 sec in about a 2" circle at 15feet. That's faster than a 1911 will cycle. Most of us aren't that fast or that good but it has been done. Even McGivern couldn't fan his SA that fast and he was really good with it as well. Speed goes to the DA, reliability goes to the SA. Rapid shooting accurately also goes to the DA. I still shoot a Ruger BH. Mostly is about making the first shot count if you even get the chance for that. Bears are amazingly fast.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    How about five targets in .88 sec, single targets are easy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Sy3-KKrqc

    Another oldie but goody
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uASngEbeamc
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Yea they are both fast but in the hands of someone that can run it a SA definitely is faster. Cisko holds a 5 target (4’ target spacing) fast draw record of .88 seconds, discount the reaction and draw time and the shot timer shows .42 seconds from shot 1 to shot 5 . . . The guy could be even faster on just one target.
    SA is faster for mechanical reasons in the clockwork needed for DA. With a SA first shot is calked with the gun hand thumb then as fast as you pass the 5 digest of the off hand over the hammer 5 more rounds come out. A DA can’t be cheated like that, everything needs to make full strokes to mechanically function. They are faster than most autos but slower than SA in skilled hands.

     
    It doesn’t matter a bit though because there dang few folks that can shoot like Cicko, Ed McGovern, Bob Munden, or Jerry Miculek and we ain’t them or even watching from the next ballpark over I’m bettin.


    The average guy getting bear attacked would likely be faster with a DA. Unless like me he ain’t, because he just about grew up plinking with SA and will likely revert to shooting a DA in SA under stress/pressure, calking every shot with the off thumb fast as he can.
     
    So anyway I figure DA is better for people that aren’t pre-programmed to shoot SA, they can learn to shoot DA using the trigger like it was intended and will then do that when under stress/pressure. For those of us already pre-programmed to thumb the hammer it don’t matter much which gun we have because we are likely to shoot them the same way anyhow . . . Unless we go to great trouble to teach old dogs new tricks and re-program ourselves anyway. Heck I’ve shot many MANY thousands of rounds from autos and still find myself trying to thumb the hammer sometimes, thank goodness the grip makes it so awkward to thumb that I catch myself before I get far.
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    I'll be the odd man here. I shoot my double actions, double action.........

    I find I can shoot more accurate double action, not so much on the first round fired, but on subsequent rounds.

    It did take a bunch of shooting.................
    "The older I get, the better I was."

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    I'm with travelers. I shoot both but shoot the DA by just pulling the trigger. I'm much more accurate but my 480 isn't in the same league as McGivern's 38 for rapid fire, and I sure wouldn't want to use the 38 on a bear. Jim

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    I know I might be stepping on toes here, and to be sure I'm not trying to ruffle anyone. I just have to say, the "cycle time" of the semi-auto is not as long as a lot of people seem to think. I think the limitations to the semi-auto are in the trigger reset not the slide cycles. Case in point. Glock makes a fully auto 9mm pistol, the Glock 18. It's identical to the Glock 17 in almost every way, with the exception of the fully auto sear. Otherwise, it's the same. The 18 has a cycle rate of 1100 to 1200 rounds per minute. Which lands it in the 18-20 rounds per second range. That's a split of about 0.05 seconds between rounds. Which would get 5 rounds off in 0.25 seconds. That's not to say a semi is faster than a revolver, because I think the trigger reset is an issue that would slow the shooter down more on a semi. My only point is that the slide cycle rate on a semi isn't the bottle neck for speed that people think.

    But for example, look at the people who bump fire the Glock 17. It cycles about as fast as the 18, but I have no idea how fast it actually can cycle since no one has measured. Anyway, just trying to say the slide cycle isn't the limiting factor on the semi-auto.

    BTW, for comparison a 5 rounds in .45 sec is a split of 0.09 seconds. So it's pretty clear that the slide cycle of the semi is faster. But the action of resetting the trigger drags the shooter down and probably makes the semi slower to shoot than the revolver for the bestest of the best shooters anyway.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Just think how fast a full auto revolver would be
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    The single action pistol is the fastest firing of all handguns up to six rounds..I shoot my DA's in SA mode most of the time and feel plenty safe with either.
    What happens is the ole Thumb starts to get tired after the first 5 rounds.

    SOTN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Just think how fast a full auto revolver would be
    They made one. It was the Mateba Autorevolver. Well, semi-auto, not full.

    Then again, I suppose you could make a decent argument that a gatling is a form of "revolver". Barrel at the 6 o'clock position, the action of recoil pushes the "slide" back rotating the cylinder and re-cocking the hammer.

    MatebaAutoRevolver6in.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    They made one. It was the Mateba Autorevolver. Well, semi-auto, not full.

    Then again, I suppose you could make a decent argument that a gatling is a form of "revolver". Barrel at the 6 o'clock position, the action of recoil pushes the "slide" back rotating the cylinder and re-cocking the hammer.

    MatebaAutoRevolver6in.jpg
    IIRC, the Engleesh made a Webley, or some such, lookin revolver that was Automatic too. That was way back when.

    I dunno where I read about it, except it was an article in a gun magazine.

    The recoil made the cylinder turn, and cock the gun. there were slots machined into the cylinder and levers in the slots.

    SOTN
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    IIRC, the Engleesh made a Webley, or some such, lookin revolver that was Automatic too. That was way back when.

    I dunno where I read about it, except it was an article in a gun magazine.

    The recoil made the cylinder turn, and cock the gun. there were slots machined into the cylinder and levers in the slots.

    SOTN
    Yeah, Webley had one too. and yeah it worked the way you said.

    FYI, not pertinent here, but Chiappa Rhino was made to mimic the Mateba. It's not a autorevolver, but it looks like the Mateba.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    John Browning made a full auto lever action in one night a his shop.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    John Browning made a full auto lever action in one night a his shop.
    John Browning was the smartest man to ever live. But then, I say that because I like guns... LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    John Browning was the smartest man to ever live. But then, I say that because I like guns... LOL.
    I agree and I do because I’ve seen the inside of so many and his simple solutions to complex problems shows me the guy had the most advanced 3D-CADD program ever and it was in his head. Other designers tend more to evolve existing designs and Browning did too but a lot of Browning’s stuff was just totally original, he just thought things up out of the clear blue that worked.
     
    Not easy to have an original idea let alone one that works. Look at other smart guys like Garand, Kalashnikov and so on . . . Geniuses but took those guys many years to pull off one design, one hit wonders but Browning just kept knocking them out like the firearms Energizer bunny completely in a league of his own!
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    Trigger and sear reset and another trigger pull are part of the cycle time on a semi auto pistol. McGivern could shoot two DA revolvers at once almost as fast as one. Try that with a SA. My favorite from Mcgivern is his throwing 5 clay pigeons in the air, drawing and shooting all before they hit the ground using bullets not birdshot. McGiverns best recorded was 5 shots in .44 seconds which is clearly slower than the .42 with the SA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Is a Single Action revolver, a bad Idea for Bear Defense? Is it too slow, in your opinion?

    Why do most choose DA over SA?

    If you have a DA, do you consider that an advantage?

    My S&W 44 Mag. is DA, and it's only purpose is Bear Protection. HOWEVER, I usually shoot it SA, and if a bear jumped me, I would probably, automatically, even in my stress, shoot SA.

    I see little advantage then, in the DA, for ME. I spose it could be a few milliseconds faster if I was that cozy with said bear.

    Now, the Big Questions, or the ones Most Pertinent. How many of you guys, n gals, shoot your Beeg Boomers, DA? If a bear got after you would you shoot DA, or SA, like I probably would, or consult the bear for his preference?

    It has come to my attention, that them bars have collectively decided on a new offensive, against those who would do them harm, including those who think they are "Gentle", like ole Ben.

    The likelyhood is, that there will be few aggressive measures in evidence until Spring, due to the fact that, by now, most have chosen to sleep on the decision. This gives us time to prepare, for whatever they might have in store. As always, it is prudent for us to use that time wisely.

    Thanks for your indulgence.
    Smitty of the North
    Looking through this thread I see that winter has hit in pretty full force in AK....

    An average shooter (which is where most shooters find themselves on the curve, hence average) is able to manipulate and fire a DA safer, quicker and more accurate than a SA given proper training/repetition. SA has a lighter/easier trigger, but in a stressful situation this is not an advantage IMO. I like that a DA can be fired with one hand without relinquishing your grip. That may not be an advantage, but then again...........

    This past fall I shot a brown bear at close range (less than 35 feet) with my handgun. While the bear was not aggressive towards me, I'd say that it counts as a close-quarters encounter. I fired the first shot using SA and hit him well, but subsequent shots were all DA and were likewise effective. There is no question that I can shoot faster using DA than I can SA, but the truth is that I shoot more than some and fire a lot of rounds using DA, though you may not consider a .44 Magnum as a "Beeg Boomer." I may be one of those nonsensical sort of guys anyways, as I'd as soon hunt (and actually prefer) a push feed to CRF and now the world knows that I'll take a DA over a SA, perhaps I'm just incorrigible..............
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

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    I'm a big fan of the SA...

    For a few reasons- first of all…I can draw, cock and fire in one smooth motion and hit pretty effectively at full speed with a SBH. I'm faster and far more fluid with it than any DA or auto I've ever had. The "pointability" rivals that of a good English stocked bird gun…and I think in defensive use that's important. The first hit is likely the important one.

    I also like the power to weight/bulk ratio of the SA….you can pack a serious .44Mag in a 4" barreled Ruger and if you have deep pockets the Freedom Arms are even more power and less bulk…heck the 5 shot M97 in .45 Colt+P with a round butt and 3" is hardly bigger than a snubbie 38 and far more potent.

    Lastly, since we live in such a climatically challenged environment I frequently wear gloves- try shooting a DA in gloves…. it's probably gonna be a single shot when the glove bunches up under the trigger and it won't return to reset. SA has a way shorter reset and can just be held back while the weak hand hits the hammer. The DA can also be operated like that but it's far more fiddly and the hammer is way smaller. Out in the field you can work a SA with fewer fine motor skills and under pressure or cold those are the first to go. I find it significant but hardly a showstopper.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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