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Thread: Volver, or oughtermatic?

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    Default Volver, or oughtermatic?

    For many years now, I've not even considered an Auto for protection from problem bears, mooses, and the like. The reason being they were considered too unreliable.

    Nowadays, it seems that folks are using Auto Pistols, and they are often considered reliable enough. But is this a good ideer, or not?

    I'm thinking about the pros and cons.

    Pros:
    They could be faster to shoot.
    Some may be able to shoot them more accurately.
    More Ammo in the magazine.
    Smaller lighter gun to pack around.
    Powerful enough???
    Reliable enough?

    Cons:
    *Unreliable????
    *Not powerful enough?
    *More complex?
    *Not many cartridges powerful enough, or comparable to what's available in a revolver.
    *Autos for Large cartridges are fewer.
    *Large cartridges for Autos are fewer.

    For a handloader----- (I've not handloaded any Auto cartridges, so some perception here.
    *Your brass is thrown all over the place, and recovery is often pretty IFFY.
    *Load has to be adjusted to the particular pistol, for function, and wear.
    *Load could cause a malfunction.

    Can anyone Add to, or Negate my Pros and Cons?

    Also, if you would choose an Auto over a Revolver, what are your reasons for that?

    AND, vice versa.

    Smitty of the North
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I saw a test once where a 1911 and a S&W 19 were put in a box of dirt and such and shaken up. The 1911 came out shooting but the S&W had a little piece of rock stuck in the groove at the top of the trigger stopping movement,Test was done six times and the one S&W failure was it for the whole testing. I thinking Jeff Cooper and Bill Jordan were the testers and both men stuck to their preferred pistol when done.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    For me to consider an auto adequate power wise for brown bear it has to launch a 250+ gr bullet at 1200+ fps. Now there are some around that will do that but the grip gets pretty big as well as the gun. If I could afford a 45 Grizzly, I would consider it to be a good choice. I'm not overly impressed with the 10mm even with the hottest rounds available although I wouldn't say it was totally inadequate either. In my opinion it is borderline light. Revolvers are available in good calibers without being overly huge guns. A 5" S&W M29 has good power without being overly large. Both autos and revolvers can be very reliable and if shooting at a bear, I really don't care where the empties go. One can be shot about as fast as the other and accuracy for defense is not an issue. The auto holds more rounds but it's unlikely you would get more than a shot or three off anyway. Most autos are less complex than revolvers. Loads can cause malfunctions in either. I carry a Ruger BH in 41mag with some very special handloads and bullets. A 270gr home made heavy jacketed hard lead filled bullet at 1200fps. I would like to have a 45Grizzly as it's about as big as I can hold comfortably and has plenty of punch. For me an auto or a revolver is fine but it has to be the right one.

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Well I love 10mm (enough Iím trying to figure out how to make a 92 lever digest it) but 10mm would feel like a BB gun if I ever encountered a bad situation with a brown. 10mm is pretty much a hot loaded 357mag for power, I donít feel thatís enough but that is about all you can get in a practical pack able auto.
     
    There is 460 Roland which gives you low to mid level 44mag power but unless you run a big ole comp on the front of them they are not very long lived contraptions. I like to shoot a lot, so not for me
     
    Revolver for bear it is for me. I base the choice on power not the other stuff, the other stuff is is all a wash, unimportant in reality. Things like reliability and brass hunting are just personal choices now days. A Glock auto is dead reliable all the time, a Taurus revolver may or may not be and all it means is one is better assembled, doesnít mean that autos are more or less reliable.
     
    Hunting brass is a pain but fumbling with brass and ammo every 6 rounds is also a pain, especially in a single action revolver. There are ways to speed up loading a revolver and ways of trapping your brass for autos so itís just which way a guy finds to be less of a pain. Same with loads, ether has its issues with loads but nothing at all insurmountable.
     
    Power? edge to revolver still. Capisity? edge to auto still. Thats about it but lot more folks are trying to improve autos so the gap is always closing.
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    outermatic!?...This is just crazy talk!!....everyone knows, the only handgun that will stop a bear is a 500 S&W. I read it on the internet

    seriously though
    I saw a bow hunting video a while back where the guy was packing a Grizzly 45 WinMag for backup. He stalked the bear with his bow (Kodiak or Peninsula Brown can't remember which) which then winded him and came after him at "in your face" range. He got off one shot with the 45 and managed to head shoot it. Bang flop. If he'd of missed the other 6 or 7 rounds would have been dead weight (pun intended) I don't know what the load was. Not sure now heavy you can go in the 45 WinMag. Sounds like a fun gun though. I'd like to play with one sometime. And a Desert Eagle 50AE.

    I think the better question is what is the minimum projectile needed that will ALWAYS penetrate far enough to stop or kill the critter even if you don't have the time for shot placement. It "seems" that a good starting point is .430 300gr flat nose, hard cast at 1200 fps. Go up to what you can shoot. On the heavy end .513 525gr at 1000-1100 will do it. I'd not feel comfortable with 200gr at 1000 but a .358 200gr hardcast would be better than nuthin.

    I don't think 5 vs 15 rounds will matter.

    Reliability depends on the particular gun and the owner.

    I think packability matters. Too big and heavy a gun will get left behind or set down somewhere. Of course "big and heavy" is subjective. Some guys like the X-Frames in the 460 and 500's.

    Problem seems to be that with the bottom feeders most guys load em up with hollow points and think they've got a "bear stopper" since they've got 10 or 15 in the mag.

    KISS... There is something to be said about a revolver....point and click or cock the hammer, point a click. No levers, buttons grip safeties, magazines, etc. Revolvers are consistent across the lines. They have a hammer and a trigger. Autoloaders come in all kinds of configurations. Not a biggie if it's your own gun but in an emergency anyone can shoot a revolver, cock the hammer, pull the trigger and it will go bang.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    .................................................. .......................................



    Also, if you would choose an Auto over a Revolver, what are your reasons for that?

    AND, vice versa.

    Smitty of the North
    I like a Revolver, don't have a real good reason, I just like'em.

    Easier to keep track of brass.

    Can get them in about any power level.

    My favorite is a double action cut for moon clips.......fast to load and fast to eject empties (without dropping any)......
    "The older I get, the better I was."

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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    I generally prefer a single action revolver to anything else. Totally reliable, packable size and weight, all the power you can use.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    I too prefer a SA revolver, but that's for another thread.

    I thought of another CON. (Con considering the current trend in Beeg Bore handguns.)

    They don't lend themselves too well, to cutting off the barrel to 2.5 inches or less.

    I like the answers I got. Some real honest down to earth considerations, mostly.

    Oh BTW, just how practical are the Grizzly Autos chambered for 45 Win Mag. or 50 AE? Plenty gun there, huh?

    Thanks
    Smitty of the North
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    The reliability of a revolver can't be overstated, especially in an attacking bear scenario. However, without proficiency with your gun in such a scenario, it really is all about luck when coming out on top. Most would like to think they can replace training and proficiency with large guns or guns with high quantities of ammunition in the magazine. So maybe one of the most important questions you should be asking is which type of gun is easier to become proficient with and hands down that would be the automatic. For the scenarios you listed above though, the large calibers of the revolver and its reliability would make it the best choice, however it is also the most difficult to master, mostly because of weight, trigger pull and recoil.
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    I find a DA revolver to be easier to master than a heavy hitter auto but practice will make either usable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoyt-Hunter View Post
    The reliability of a revolver can't be overstated, especially in an attacking bear scenario. However, without proficiency with your gun in such a scenario, it really is all about luck when coming out on top. Most would like to think they can replace training and proficiency with large guns or guns with high quantities of ammunition in the magazine. So maybe one of the most important questions you should be asking is which type of gun is easier to become proficient with and hands down that would be the automatic. For the scenarios you listed above though, the large calibers of the revolver and its reliability would make it the best choice, however it is also the most difficult to master, mostly because of weight, trigger pull and recoil.
    I can't disagree, too much.

    That the gun is Larger, won't improve your shooting. It will probably make it worse.

    Some large revolvers, are so painful to shoot, and the ammo so expensive, that the owners suggest shooting Low Power loads for practice, and saving the Maximum loads for carry. There may be some surprises, though, when it comes to actually using them.

    Practice always helps I'm sure, but I think that there should be practice with what you hope to defend yourself with.

    There has to be a Limit on how "BIG" a handgun can be, and still be practical. That limit probably varies somewhat, with the individual.

    I think that many, just enjoy learning or trying to learn, to master a beeg bore revolver.

    The extry noise, recoil, and Muzzle Blast will not deter them.

    Smitty of the North

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    I'd like to come at this from a slightly different angle. I'm a semi-auto guy. 100%. Don't even own a wheel gun. I've spent all of my shooting life learning self-defense and competitions for defense again another human. So I lean toward semi-auto, rapid fire, big capacity, easy control. It's what I like. Having said that, I personally believe all of the info here and would be of the mind that a semi-auto isn't the best for protection against large mammals. Honestly since moving to AK, for the first time in my life, I'm considering a wheel gun for that purpose alone. I'd never wear it around a town (like I do my concealed carry gun) but I'd sure be inclined to have something for a walk in the woods...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    I'd like to come at this from a slightly different angle. I'm a semi-auto guy. 100%. Don't even own a wheel gun. I've spent all of my shooting life learning self-defense and competitions for defense again another human. So I lean toward semi-auto, rapid fire, big capacity, easy control. It's what I like. Having said that, I personally believe all of the info here and would be of the mind that a semi-auto isn't the best for protection against large mammals. Honestly since moving to AK, for the first time in my life, I'm considering a wheel gun for that purpose alone. I'd never wear it around a town (like I do my concealed carry gun) but I'd sure be inclined to have something for a walk in the woods...
    For beeg cartridges, revolvers have a lot to offer, so IMO, you could go that way.

    And, like rbuck says, practice with it a lot, something we should all do. Oughtermatic shooters, shoot a lot, anyway, don't they?

    Another option, especially for someone who is well trained with an auto pistol would be 10 mm in a gun something like Andy's EAA. It was comfortable to shoot. Some folks believe a 10mm is Bear medicine.

    I have a 44 Mag. revolver, with less than Max loads, and that's my limit for what I want to deal with.

    Smitty of the North
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    I'd like to come at this from a slightly different angle. I'm a semi-auto guy. 100%. Don't even own a wheel gun. I've spent all of my shooting life learning self-defense and competitions for defense again another human. So I lean toward semi-auto, rapid fire, big capacity, easy control. It's what I like. Having said that, I personally believe all of the info here and would be of the mind that a semi-auto isn't the best for protection against large mammals. Honestly since moving to AK, for the first time in my life, I'm considering a wheel gun for that purpose alone. I'd never wear it around a town (like I do my concealed carry gun) but I'd sure be inclined to have something for a walk in the woods...
    It's not really an issue with the semi-auto as much as it is an issue with the calibers that most are offered in. Bullet weight, caliber and bullet design are what make a hunting/bear protection load. If a guy wants to stay with an autoloader, the "starting point" would be a 10mm. But, by most standards you'd be on the light end, at least in Alaska. Some guys are ok with the 10 here though. A guy can step up to the Desert Eagle 50ae or 44 mag but then you are to a larger, heavier, spendy gun. 1800 bucks for a 50ae. And what have you really gained over the wheel gun? What have you lost?

    http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firear...zzle-Brake.asp


    For almost half the cost that could buy the BFR in a 500jrh or 475L and have a more effective caliber in a more packable gun. I think the BFR 500jrh (or 475L) is the best value out there in a half bore packable handgun. 440gr 500jrh versus 325gr in the 50ae. Plus you can shoot WFN or LFN's in the BFR which is what you want. You'd be limited to more of a round nose in the autoloader depending on the load.

    https://www.magnumresearch.com/Firea...nch-Barrel.asp

    Autoloaders just cannot compete with wheel guns when it comes to calibers best suited for stopping/killing large furry animals that bite back. At least this holds true for Alaska. In the lower 48?? Get yourself a 10mm. load it up with proper 200gr cast boolits and fear no more!
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    It's not really an issue with the semi-auto as much as it is an issue with the calibers that most are offered in. Bullet weight, caliber and bullet design are what make a hunting/bear protection load. If a guy wants to stay with an autoloader, the "starting point" would be a 10mm. But, by most standards you'd be on the light end, at least in Alaska. Some guys are ok with the 10 here though. A guy can step up to the Desert Eagle 50ae or 44 mag but then you are to a larger, heavier, spendy gun. 1800 bucks for a 50ae. And what have you really gained over the wheel gun? What have you lost?

    http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firear...zzle-Brake.asp


    For almost half the cost that could buy the BFR in a 500jrh or 475L and have a more effective caliber in a more packable gun. I think the BFR 500jrh (or 475L) is the best value out there in a half bore packable handgun. 440gr 500jrh versus 325gr in the 50ae. Plus you can shoot WFN or LFN's in the BFR which is what you want. You'd be limited to more of a round nose in the autoloader depending on the load.

    https://www.magnumresearch.com/Firea...nch-Barrel.asp

    Autoloaders just cannot compete with wheel guns when it comes to calibers best suited for stopping/killing large furry animals that bite back. At least this holds true for Alaska. In the lower 48?? Get yourself a 10mm. load it up with proper 200gr cast boolits and fear no more!
    OK, so I wasn't 100% clear. LOL. I know I could get a DE. But (And I'm probably gonna get my butt kicked for this), I see the DE as a novelty more than a useful tool. It's too big, too expensive, too heavy, pretty much a gimmick. My opinion, not trying to step on toes. I also see the same thing for the .500 S&W, again, my opinion. I should have qualified that I meant in the realm of standard carry type ammo, not the specialty calibers like .50AE.

    I wouldn't mind a decent .454 Casul though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    here is something to be said about a revolver....point and click or cock the hammer, point a click. No levers, buttons grip safeties, magazines, etc. Revolvers are consistent across the lines. They have a hammer and a trigger. Autoloaders come in all kinds of configurations. Not a biggie if it's your own gun but in an emergency anyone can shoot a revolver, cock the hammer, pull the trigger and it will go bang.
    This is just one of the things I like about a revolver. My girlfriend doesn't dislike guns, but she cares nothing for them either, so she's never ever going to practice, let alone "train." I know that, when the chips are down, I can hand her a revolver and say "You've got six shots. Wait till it's almost on top of you, point, and pull the trigger. Keep pulling until it's empty." And she can manage that. (As could my son who, to my knowledge has never seen or held a handgun.)

    EDIT: reminds me of Jimmy Stewart and Shelly Winters in "Winchester '73" when they're surrounded by Indians and Stewart gives Winters his Colt/ "Save the last bullet for yourself" kind of thing.

    I'm surprised, however, that no one has mentioned down line reliability. I don't mean "reliability" as in, propensity for a jam under a given set of parameters; I mean which will perform with little or no maintenance over years, decades, or even generations of service.

    And, as I ask this question, I have to say, discount the Taurus revolvers; they are the "outliers" outside the normal curve. I've never owned one, but everyone I know who has owned one, has had to send it back to Taurus. (I have owned an autoloader Taurus, used it in competition, and felt it was a darn good gun, better than the original of which it was a knock-off.) SO, given that, where do revolvers and autoloaders stand, comparatively speaking, as to whether or not my grandson will still be carrying said handgun in the woods long after I'm dead and gone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
    OK, so I wasn't 100% clear. LOL. I know I could get a DE. But (And I'm probably gonna get my butt kicked for this), I see the DE as a novelty more than a useful tool. It's too big, too expensive, too heavy, pretty much a gimmick. My opinion, not trying to step on toes. I also see the same thing for the .500 S&W, again, my opinion. I should have qualified that I meant in the realm of standard carry type ammo, not the specialty calibers like .50AE.

    I wouldn't mind a decent .454 Casul though.

    I feel the same way about the DE's. I also feel the same way about the X-Frames. I was surprised though buy the balance and handling of the BFR 45-70. I fondled one a guy had at the range one day. Didn't get a chance to shoot it but it's a low pressure round. But, not a belt gun.

    I pack a 454 Redawk. It started life as a 4" 45 Colt and I put a Super Redhawk 454 cylinder in it. I shoot a 355gr at 1300fps which is probably about a 50,000psi load. If I load it higher towards 454 max psi I get crimp jump which then ties up the cylinder. I didn't cost me anything to do the conversion by the time I was done wheeling and dealing and selling pars. But, if it were gonna cost me any money I'd not do it again. Practically speaking, the Ruger only 45 Colt loads in the 4" Redhawk were 355gr at 1150ish which will go clean through a moose and be plenty to penetrate bone a muscle to get to vitals or cns on a griz.

    The 454 Super Redhawk is a heck of a gun if a guy wants a DA. The "Toklat" version is a 5 inch barrel which makes for a nice packable size. Action is better than the Redhawks as well. I have mixed feelings about the Ruger SRH Alaskan. It seems the 2 inch barrel neuters the 454 too much. But it is a handy size but I don't find a 4 inch barrel too long.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Member Yellowknife's Avatar
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    Why one? I own both types. Use them in the field as appropriate.


    Reliability wise, I've seen failures with both kinds. Mechanically, I've actually seen far more issues with revolvers. My Ruger single action has sheared off the ejector housing screw no less than three times, and pounded the cylinder pin until it wouldn't stay in the gun any longer. I've also seen different S&W's lock up, fail to spin the cylinder, and misfire due to a short firing pin. All that was over the course of several thousand rounds of .44 mag, so I still generally trust them. My ancient 2'nd Gen Glock 10mm on the other hand is completely stock, and I have yet to see it jam or fail in any way. I don't have as many rounds down range with that gun though, so I don't claim any serious superiority.

    To me, the biggest difference is accuracy and speed under stress. I can shoot far FAR better and faster with the glock than I can with my Ruger SRH, and I can shoot the SRH faster and more accurately than my Ruger single action, so the glock is what I carry most of the time. Switch back to the SRH when beating the coastal brush and want 320 gr on tap.

    I carried that single action .44 for many years also. I just like the way it feels and carries. However, lots of side by side test proved to myself that followup shots with heavy hard cast were significantly slower and less accurate that a double action. Not bad with the regular loads, but the gun rotation allowed by the single action grip starts to become a problem with the heavy stuff.

    Yk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowknife View Post
    ...My ancient 2'nd Gen Glock 10mm on the other hand is completely stock, and I have yet to see it jam or fail in any way. I don't have as many rounds down range with that gun though, so I don't claim any serious superiority...

    Yk
    What kind of loads have you shot? Have you shot much cast loads in the Glock?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    What kind of loads have you shot? Have you shot much cast loads in the Glock?

    In this day and age, I shoot whatever I can find. Mostly Blazer and and a random selection of 180 gr hollowpoints right now. Been through several boxes of Buffalo Bore 200 gr flat point stuff and about 40 rds of Double Tap 200 gr hard cast (in the stock barrel). I'm going to start handloading for it in the near future I think, although chasing brass from an auto sucks.

    Like I said, no where near the number of rds from that gun as I have through my .44's. Less than a thousand at this point. It's old, and bone stock, but I also only got it two years ago in a trade.

    Interestingly, I did some primitive penetration testing using spruce boards last year. The BB 10mm stuff actually reliably penetrated the same distance as my 320 gr .44 loads. Not what I expected, and I'm not sure what to make of that. Of course it's a smaller hole.... but still.


    Yk

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