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Thread: That familiar satisfying experience

  1. #1

    Default That familiar satisfying experience

    THAT FAMILIAR SATISFYING EXPERIENCE

    by Mike Price

    http://ammoguide.com/?article=pricescorner/131001

    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Good honest read. The old style black powder shooters still drop game dead with conical and round balls.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

  3. #3

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    Clearly he's risen above the run of the mill modern gun hack. I'd also bet his publisher isn't getting ad dollars from any of the mono companies right now!

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    Member IceKing02's Avatar
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    Beartooth,

    How timely that you would post this article today. Only two days ago I was trying to get more information about bullets from a client of mine who is a master guide in Alaska. His experience in taking all manners of game around the world (both personally and in his professional guiding) led him to observe very simple, consistent associations and thus form his recommendations to me.

    1. There are only two bullets that he will use and recommend being used on bears: Nosler Partition and Swift A-frames.
    2. There is an alarming association of monolithic bullets to wounded and lost bears. His contention is that the thick fat layer plugs smaller holes quite well and leads to more wounding.
    3. He contends that at least one major monolithic bullet manufacturer spends two cents making the bullet and fifty cents on advertising whereas his preferred bullet manufacturers have classically spent fifty cents on making the bullet and two cents advertising them. Thus advertising, not performance, drives sales of their mono bullets.
    4. The association of the two bullet brands and the consistency of their performance leaves him little reason to look for another bullet. Thus, he sees no reason to look for a replacement for the Nosler Partition (first choice) or the Swift A-Frame (close second).
    5. He contends that many of the "new" monolithic bullets are really just recycled bullet designs from the Civil War, made on a simple machine.

    Just thought I'd share his experience and observations.

  5. #5
    Member 1Cor15:19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceKing02 View Post
    Beartooth,

    How timely that you would post this article today. Only two days ago I was trying to get more information about bullets from a client of mine who is a master guide in Alaska. His experience in taking all manners of game around the world (both personally and in his professional guiding) led him to observe very simple, consistent associations and thus form his recommendations to me.

    1. There are only two bullets that he will use and recommend being used on bears: Nosler Partition and Swift A-frames.
    2. There is an alarming association of monolithic bullets to wounded and lost bears. His contention is that the thick fat layer plugs smaller holes quite well and leads to more wounding.
    3. He contends that at least one major monolithic bullet manufacturer spends two cents making the bullet and fifty cents on advertising whereas his preferred bullet manufacturers have classically spent fifty cents on making the bullet and two cents advertising them. Thus advertising, not performance, drives sales of their mono bullets.
    4. The association of the two bullet brands and the consistency of their performance leaves him little reason to look for another bullet. Thus, he sees no reason to look for a replacement for the Nosler Partition (first choice) or the Swift A-Frame (close second).
    5. He contends that many of the "new" monolithic bullets are really just recycled bullet designs from the Civil War, made on a simple machine.

    Just thought I'd share his experience and observations.
    Not to be argumentative, but his "experience" is not authoritative, nor would I say is it indicative of expected terminal performance. Most everyone has an "axe to grind" and my experience has taught me that guides are not ballistic experts nor are they even close.....
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

  6. #6

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    Great read Mike.

    I was always a fan of controlled expansion type bullets including the Partion and mono's, but over the last few years I am being persuaded the the cup and core, specifically Bergers, are extremely effective on big game animals up to and including elk size. The preferred shot is one through the lungs which basically turns them to jello. Hard for a critter to go very far with mush for lungs. I'll mention that some friends of mine who use them extensively with great success highly recommend the heaviest for cal that shoots practically in a particular chambering or rate of twist. I.e., a 230 gr in my 10 twist 300 RUM. This gives you more mass and reduced velocity which is good when using these frangible bullets. Recommended impact velocity range for the "hunting" VLD's is about 1800 fps to 3000 fps.

    I think they would work well on moose with a well placed lung shot but are a risky choice for any other type of shot on that large an animal. I would use them on small bears but not large bears.

    Have you tried the Cutting Edge mono's? About 2/3rds the cost of the GSC bullets and have shown to be very effective. I can give you some terminal results thread links if you're interested.

    Thanks for the enjoyable read.
    "You will never know how much it cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you make good use of it."
    ~ John Quincy Adams

  7. #7
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    I have never used a modern monolith or even the fancy A frames or Nosler partition on any game as they are a lot more expensive than the run of the mill cup and core bullets and I have had nothing but good performance with the C&C bullets. Over the years I have shot about a dozen moose. Two with a 308W and 150gr Speer, one with a 338W and a core lokt, one with a 300H&H and a 180 Speer, one with a 270W and a 130gr Hornady, The rest with the 270W and 150gr Speer. All but one have either been complete pass through or on the far side hide. The one that actually surprised me was the 130gr Hornady from the 270 as it went through both scapula at about 175yds and was the nice looking mushroom on the far side hide with 90% + weight retention. The only one that didn't get to the hide on the far side was a 150Speer from the 270. It hit the spine at the hump and exploded itself and about 6" of spine. That moose was dead before it hit the ground from a bullet that, according to modern thinking, failed. The only exception I take with your article is the use of the ballistic tip on tough critters. I used one once on a midsized black bear from a 300H&H at a little over 300yds. Due to me jerking the trigger, the bullet struck a rear leg bone and totally disintegrated. The empty cup did make it to the far side but I was not happy with it's performance as I believe it to be to fragile for tough critters. Very good article. I think the monoliths are fine for the huge whizbang magnums but a heavier cup and core would probably work as well and a lot cheaper ( more practice) as well.

  8. #8
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    I have never had need of fancy bullets. I still love my nosler partitions. they have never failed me yet. For deer any good cup and core bullet is just fine.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Great read Mike.

    I was always a fan of controlled expansion type bullets including the Partion and mono's, but over the last few years I am being persuaded the the cup and core, specifically Bergers, are extremely effective on big game animals up to and including elk size. The preferred shot is one through the lungs which basically turns them to jello. Hard for a critter to go very far with mush for lungs. I'll mention that some friends of mine who use them extensively with great success highly recommend the heaviest for cal that shoots practically in a particular chambering or rate of twist. I.e., a 230 gr in my 10 twist 300 RUM. This gives you more mass and reduced velocity which is good when using these frangible bullets. Recommended impact velocity range for the "hunting" VLD's is about 1800 fps to 3000 fps.

    I think they would work well on moose with a well placed lung shot but are a risky choice for any other type of shot on that large an animal. I would use them on small bears but not large bears.

    Have you tried the Cutting Edge mono's? About 2/3rds the cost of the GSC bullets and have shown to be very effective. I can give you some terminal results thread links if you're interested.

    Thanks for the enjoyable read.
    Right on MR, even the little Berger bullets that we shoot coyotes with make a difference. I've shot enough coyotes !with enough different bullets to know that it does make a difference what little pill lands on them. Bergers are good! Unless your shooting in the rain! Ha Remember that thread? How the heck are ya?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Right on MR, even the little Berger bullets that we shoot coyotes with make a difference. I've shot enough coyotes !with enough different bullets to know that it does make a difference what little pill lands on them. Bergers are good! Unless your shooting in the rain! Ha Remember that thread? How the heck are ya?
    Yup EKC, I remember it, haha! Funny you should ask... I saw a video of a guy shooting a 30-30 in the rain and he recorded hits with the drops. I was thinking of you here's a link to the thread... enjoy

    http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...17/index2.html

    Yeah the Bergers are awesome bullets, they have some limitations but when used in the right circumstances they can't be beat for putting a critter down. Not too good on coyote pelts I would imagine. The Fed government decided to introduce a bigger variety of coyote like varmint here and they are just making a mess of our elk and moose. I'll be going after some this winter.

    Doing OK here, getting some rifles put together for this year's hunting and loading some Bergers and CEB's to see which shoots the best. Good to see ya!
    "You will never know how much it cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you make good use of it."
    ~ John Quincy Adams

  11. #11

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    MR, I am familiar with cutting edge ordering one box of Match/Tactical/Hunting. Was not overly impressed at all. To many technical problems with a wide driving band and pressure peak quicker. Could not get the same velocities as the GS HV nor was I able to find an accurate load as easy. I am not impressed with cold rolled bar copper, because it is not a bar type that is good for making bullets. Air pockets are easily formed in the rod, but they don't always show up on the bullet like those in the picture below. The only way you'll know if you have air pockets when using bullets made with this type of copper is by weighing each individual bullet. A bullet with an air pocket will be much lighter. GS HV bullets are made from extruded bar copper and every bullet made by them is is weighed, measured and visually inspected for quality before it is finished and packaged. I have not tested Cutting Edge bullets on game, but I have GS and Barnes. I will stick with the GS HV which is the main bullet I will use this year in my 30-06.


    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  12. #12

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    WOW mike... You must have got a bad batch. I have close to 400 CE bullets here and shot 60 or 70 more in various calibers and not one of them looks like the picture you posted. I have closely inspected a couple hundred of them and not one air pocket is visible. You would think that if there were air pockets in the material, they would show up like the ones in your pic when lathe turned. Not a one for me so far. Also, just weighed a box of 50 6.5 143 MTACs and 38 of them weighed 143 gr, 12 weighed 143.1 gr and 4 weighed 142.9. Well within my standards and a lot better than a lot of cup and core and Barnes bullets that I have weighed. I used my RCBS Chargemaster scale, so I'm guessing the 142.9 bullets were closer to 143 than 142.8 and the 143.1 bullets closer to 143 than 143.2. Also, I know other guys shooting these and not one has reported anything like what your pic shows.

    Also, me and the other guys I mentioned have had different shooting results than you. We have all shot them out to 1000 yds and farther with good accuracy. In my case, close to 1/2 MOA. As for pressure spiking and velocity, I did not experience any more pressure spiking than when pressure testing for any other bullet during load development. Load development was easy. Just found my max in my old 300 RUM Sendero and went from there. Accuracy was about .5 MOA at short to mid ranges and maybe .6 or .7 to 1K. Velocity was better than the 180 E-Tips (I was shooting the 180 C21's). Max for the the E-Tips was 3400 fps, about 3450 for the CEB's and about 3470 for the GS HV 177's. BTW, I could not get sub MOA groups for the 177 GS bullets, but I'm going to give them another go with my new semi custom 300 RUM 5C Broughton.

    I have not heard one bad report as far as terminal performance yet and many good reports including taking elk out to 1300 yds by Joel Russo (stock maker) and company.

    http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...ormance-67985/

    If you do a search using the search feature in the upper right of the LRH forum page on cutting edge terminal performance you'll find more good reports.

    Anyway, I'm liking the Bergers as well. You'll probably see some threads from me on results with the CEB's and Bergers and maybe the GSC's

    Looking forward to your results with the GSC's in your 30-06
    "You will never know how much it cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you make good use of it."
    ~ John Quincy Adams

  13. #13

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    No, those were not my box. It is what happen when cold rolled copper is used. Those were shown as an example of what cannot be seen many times inside bullets made from cold rolled copper. I did not like them because of load work I did with them. I am sure like barnes bullets they kill what they hit, I just have a preference from my own field test concerning my choice over E-tip and barnes. I also do not like their design of the M/T/H, once again preference. But I can say I will not be using any this year on game and will have to find more motivation than I have now to use them. I am sure they are great stuff.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

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