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Thread: Thoughts on HB/SD after 6 years.

  1. #1

    Default Thoughts on HB/SD after 6 years.

    Although I still basically champion the Hudson Bay and Surface Drive, I've some amending to do. I went to the surface drive
    to avoid the endless banging of the prop and the lower unit. Unfortunately, I now bang the boat a lot. With damage as the result.
    Now that there's nothing hanging under the boat, it's much easier to bottom out the canoe. Take your pick: Use an outboard and
    destroy it or use a surface drive and hammer your boat! I was recently stuck with a friend at the mouth of the kandik for 5 days
    during a snowstorm. It seemed every boat that came through had sustained some pretty serious damage. Royalex,fiberglass,
    and aluminum. All hauled out and in dry dock. Boats and shallow rocky rivers are simply problematic. And the damage on freighter
    canoes is usually in the same place. Extreme stern where all the weight is. I met Mainer for the first time there as he was holed
    up there repairing a canoe. He does seem very knowledgable about all the various lay ups. His description of the canoes he intends
    to build do sound considerably stronger than what's currently available. I tore several hunks of the the thick Kevlar strips off my
    HB. Easy to repair - but makes me wonder about the viability of fiberglass on rocky rivers. Also, my starter died on my mud buddy
    at 130 hrs. Not very impressive. I also recommend carrying a section of 3/8 threaded rod with nuts and washers for emergency
    use to replace the engine trim. My threads were somehow damaged and I hauled a moose out of Minto Flats on August 22 with
    great difficulty. Without the threaded rod there's no way to hold the engine and prop up. Big Pain.

  2. #2
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    every RIG has a limitation on it , like you said the back 25 % of our rig's get banged up a lot an it don't matter what you do, we pust them a lot
    the 19 FT Grumman with strips of Alum. fixed on to it works fairley good , but don't push it, every thing has a limit to it , these large canoe's with foam in between sheets is great, don't bang it a lot as you will break the bond between the construction of the sides an bottom an then you have mush for foam in the bottom SID

  3. #3
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    Yup... I have worn down my stern a bit this year. Will see how it goes.

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    Default Yukon hull material - pros and cons of each type

    Kandik, what a unique perspective you just got with 3 hurt hulls of different types all in the same place same time. I have a few thoughts and questions about this.

    So far as hull material, I think there's at least two sides to that equation:
    1) how resistant is the hull material to damage?
    2) once damage happens (nothing is indestructible) how easy/hard is it to field repair, and later, to permanently repair?

    Since I have less experience with aluminum and none with royalex, I can talk to fiberglass some:

    Yes its pretty tough (though different types of cloth can vary its durability/strength), but yes it also can crack and get holes punched. One upside to its cracking is that sometimes the cloth can still maintain boat shape and some strength though it might not be waterproof anymore. Once damaged, a pretty small repair kit can let you spread new cloth, mix the resin and make a decent field repair. Though I think you saw problems with the repair involving lots of cold/snow which or course makes repairs more challenging. If too cold, a warmer environment can be had with a tarp over and cookstove under the boat/damage. And once home it can be sanded, reglassed, and repainted. The downside of repeated repairs like this is that your hull weighs more than it did when new.

    I'd like to hear comparisons to aluminum, royalex, and even uhmw.

    Also Kandik you've got quite a fair bit of experience with our rocky streams; what your your thoughts on comparisons between hull types? And what did you see there afield when you saw all three types repaired/bandaided?

  5. #5

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    I'm not familiar with using these surface drives, but was wondering. Is there anyway to easily move the operator just aft of center to balance out the draft? When loading my paddle canoe I like it to be mostly balanced, but with a little bit more weight just aft of center.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kushtekaa View Post
    I'm not familiar with using these surface drives, but was wondering. Is there anyway to easily move the operator just aft of center to balance out the draft? When loading my paddle canoe I like it to be mostly balanced, but with a little bit more weight just aft of center.
    i haven't built the system yet, but this is exactly what I want...

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/119074-Looking-to-build-a-remote-steer-throttle-for-my-outboard-tiller

    Trouble is even with good trim and a SD motor, we are still talking small boat, rocky river. Something will get whacked, its when not if.

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    The great thing about these forums is, you get to hear about problems people have working their boats, and maybe avoid some of them...Kandik, sounds like you are running Kevlar skid plates. How do/are you removing the damaged Kevlar out in the field? I carry the West System/flex epoxy kit to repair the bottom of the boat. I have a hacksaw with extra blades in the frame for cutting Kevlar. I have never had to use the hacksaw, but am curious what method you were using? Are you using an epoxy repair kit of some type? I have a vague recollection of flying dog food to a couple that homesteaded about half way up the Kandik, are they still out there? Any moose left? Or was that a caribou hunt? I heard they were up on the North side of the Yukon over that way...

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by swmn View Post
    i haven't built the system yet, but this is exactly what I want...

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/119074-Looking-to-build-a-remote-steer-throttle-for-my-outboard-tiller

    Trouble is even with good trim and a SD motor, we are still talking small boat, rocky river. Something will get whacked, its when not if.
    I could not get access to the wooden boat link. But I remember my father having a panfish boat with a steering stick (similar looking to a long straight gear shift + knob on a manual truck). You pushed it forward to go right & down to go left. Here is a link to a bass tracker model: http://www.trackerboats.com/boat/?boat=3492
    Here's a better view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLuDP3fxh4

    As I recall it worked good, but not great. It seemed like you had a large turning radius (probably a safety measure built in by the manufacturer) as compared to steering by traditional means, one could get the outboard at greater angles for tighter turns.

    In this rocky river situation, I would much rather have the bottom of my boat have a sacrificial material, than have to deal with who knows what on a surface drive. The exterior layer of Royalex to me would be the perfect sacrificial material. Only question: Is it easy to maintain?

    Having side x side seating, in your suggested configuration, with a lightly loaded canoe, would give bouancy to your ends & you could take on bigger waves, something that is apparent when tackling a wave train with a solo vs partnered canoe.

    Would love to see your setup, after you get it dialed in.

  9. #9

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    Well, all the boat hulls seem vulnerable. Aluminum is tough but when it does rip - a lot more trouble. My friend's esqief rangely sustained
    damage several times. Not because it's not a great boat but because rocks are, well,rocks! The royalex also requires a different witch's brew
    of chemicals. The great advantage of fiberglass is the ease of repair. I carry west systems epoxy and hardener. I've used it a lot in the field.
    I got high centered on a small log in a stream in Minto flats last year . After an hour of struggling and sawing logs under water I was ready to
    abandon ship and rope come along it off the log. I got it off. At home I couldn't believe I had completely ripped the layer of thick epoxied kevlar
    off the keel for 3 inches. Not as tough as I thought. Also, this year when I screwed up and drove my rig into the shallows I was surprised to find
    in Circle ,when I pulled the boat, major damage. All 3 layers of Kevlar felt near the wineglass stern were gone about 10 inches wide and about a
    foot on the keel. Fixable, but not as tough as I had predicted.
    Regarding field repairs: I'm older and although I'm a carpenter and a weight lifter there's no way I 'm going to dead lift an awkward 165#
    motor off the stern ,pull the 250# boat and flip it to repair a hole. That means a repair from the inside. I've done it several times. Do a more major
    repair when the boat's on the trailer.
    The bigger mud motors work with a center console. Way too heavy though.
    Yes, the couple still lives on the Kandik. They are friends off Mainer.
    I had already gotten a moose this year, so I wasn't really hunting. A few folks got bulls above the gorge. If you're willing to risk your live,boat
    or both -go for it.
    My last gripe: I 've decided wineglass sterns look nice on sailing yachts but but have no place on our rigs. They're begging for damage.
    I've lost count of how many times I've worked on mine.Also, the nice stern keels on the esquire rangely are similarly exposed. Mainer's ideas
    for his creations will I think solve the problem.
    I've paddled thousands of miles over 35 years. I've had exactly one bit of damage: A small rip in my feathercraft folding kayak while lining
    around some shallows on the Noatak years ago. Ass heavy motorized freighter canoes are just going to come with a unique set of hassles.

  10. #10
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipercub
    I have a vague recollection of flying dog food to a couple that homesteaded about half way up the Kandik, are they still out there?


    pipercub,

    Please drop me a pm, would be good to hook up again and find out who you are. Over the years we've had plenty of pilots help out getting supplies (and dog food) to us, possibly you were one of the Yukon Quest pilots back when we used to host a safety-point on the Yukon for the race. We're 50 river miles up from the Yukon, going on over three decades here now.

    Inre the topic of this thread, I'll just say that I would not ever go back to anything aluminum as far as freight canoes for tributary river running. You really needs something that at least can slide over rocks when you encounter shallower waters. Also, as ironic as it may sound, one of the shallowest running rigs I ran in the past was a Coleman 17' canoe with a 4hp sidemount outboard. (Outboard eventually crapped out on me, never did replace it) I could lean the canoe over in shallows while running to where gunwale opposite the motor was near waterline, and outboard and prop were thence angled to where I could still putt up riffles with the hull dragging.

    Hey kandik, was it 3-mile reef where you did the damage to your rig? I heard from a couple hunters were damaging hulls there, really sharp shale rocks at that reef and hard for most to tell where the deepest channel is.


  11. #11
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    little tidbit about working with over a half dozen different epoxies over the years:
    west sytem epoxy is overly stiff, brittle crap. When it fails, it shatters off in large chunks. It's also temp sensitive. wetting out kevlar with west system, would be like topping off the oil in your engine with silica.......an expensive mistake. Due to marketing savvy, west system seems to be one of the most well known epoxy systems out there, an outdated formula from the early 1980's.

    Kevlar is flexible, which is what makes it desirable. West System is not. Use a flexible blend of epoxy, and take advantage of the impact resistance offered by Kevlar.

    When adhering kevlar to the bottoms of boats, trim up a bunch of 6oz. fiberglass cloth no larger than 1/4". break it up well, it'll look like goose-down after it's fluffed up. mix that in at a ratio of 1:7 by volume. spread this on the surface to be coated. this will dramatically improve the strength of the bond. use pure/unthickened epoxy to further wet out the Kevlar material.

    Most boat building epoxies are sensitive to UV damage. how long does the sun shine in Alaska? Finish this expensive re-enforcement with a two-part epoxy bottom paint, or marine grade polyurethane clear coat. I've seen this Kevlar felt rip off from even moderate impacts. It's generally what the parrots provide when you call and ask for a rock guard. Use a thick/weaved Kevlar tape instead, not felt. It's stronger.

  12. #12
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    Mainer, west systems developed a new flexible epoxy called Gflex. I have used it for installing Kevlar skid plates, it works very well. Came out three-four years ago...

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