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Thread: Sub legal moose

  1. #1
    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Default Sub legal moose

    So far in unit 15 (all sub units, don't have the breakdown) there have been 40 (known) moose taken, of which 12 are either illegal or "unknown". Up around soldotna most of the illegal moose were spikes with an unseen brow tine, whereas down in the caribou hills most were under 50"s ( some like 40") Of the illegal bulls 7 were either self turn ins or turned in by others, and 5 are were "found" including one head with the horns cut off that was left in Barabara creek. If that one was legal the hunter needs to call F&G in homer and let them know, since there is no way to seal antlers in Seldovia there is gonna be some leniency as far as getting them to homer. Just takes a phone call.
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    What a dismal and depressing set of statistics. A full 30% of the harvest to date has been illegal? These kinds of numbers actually start to push me over the line to the "shut down GH moose in 15" camp. If this is really how it is going, then it's time to go strictly draw tags by sub-unit. No wonder I haven't even tried to hunt moose in my backyard for the last half dozen years now. We stopped seeing legal animals about a decade ago in our most fruitful hunting areas.
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  3. #3

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    Dave i know we've talked about this before, but I think going back to "spike" was the wrong move. If the BOG wants to open up more opportunities for hunters we need to go to a permit "any bull" tag. It's hard to justify 30% of the animals killed were illegals. How many more are lying in 4 foot tall fireweed rotting away because that spike was actually a forky at 300 yards thru a scope.

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomerAdam View Post
    Dave i know we've talked about this before, but I think going back to "spike" was the wrong move. If the BOG wants to open up more opportunities for hunters we need to go to a permit "any bull" tag. It's hard to justify 30% of the animals killed were illegals. How many more are lying in 4 foot tall fireweed rotting away because that spike was actually a forky at 300 yards thru a scope.
    Yep, but if you can't tell a spike you can't tell a fork, and if you can't judge between 45" or 50" what's the difference? The point is that we have a whole lot of folks who claim to be hunters, but obviously don't have the pride of ability to prove it. If the only thing a "hunter" can judge is "bull or not-bull", then they are no sort of hunter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomerAdam View Post
    Dave i know we've talked about this before, but I think going back to "spike" was the wrong move. If the BOG wants to open up more opportunities for hunters we need to go to a permit "any bull" tag. It's hard to justify 30% of the animals killed were illegals. How many more are lying in 4 foot tall fireweed rotting away because that spike was actually a forky at 300 yards thru a scope.
    Forks were legal this year too weren't they? You know it's got to the point where I haven't hardly seen ANY moose on the KP anymore. That being said. I did see a big bull near skilak lake road area that had to be pushing high 50s. I have a tier 1 tag so didn't even think about goin after. That is the first moose I've seen in awhile there. Hope he makes it thru the year..... I often see big bulls near moose pass too after season is ended, but not in 5 years now......I love watching them jus as much as anything.... Depressing they are thinning out



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    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    What a dismal and depressing set of statistics. A full 30% of the harvest to date has been illegal? These kinds of numbers actually start to push me over the line to the "shut down GH moose in 15" camp. If this is really how it is going, then it's time to go strictly draw tags by sub-unit. No wonder I haven't even tried to hunt moose in my backyard for the last half dozen years now. We stopped seeing legal animals about a decade ago in our most fruitful hunting areas.
    You're exactly right ..... it's time to consider going to a drawing only system. The current list of sub-legals is really growing, but that list does not include the ones that were shot ...... determined to be too small .... and then left and maybe not found by anyone. Too many wasted moose.

    A drawing tag should be good for any bull any size, as the expertise to evaluate a legal bull based on antler spread or the number brow tines is extremely limited. There is a bull in my neighborhood running around with an arrow sticking into it's ribs. I question whether that whole archery thing is a another costly failure as well. There are probably some great archers out there ...... and a whole lot of bad ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cormit View Post
    You're exactly right ..... it's time to consider going to a drawing only system. The current list of sub-legals is really growing, but that list does not include the ones that were shot ...... determined to be too small .... and then left and maybe not found by anyone. Too many wasted moose.

    A drawing tag should be good for any bull any size, as the expertise to evaluate a legal bull based on antler spread or the number brow tines is extremely limited. There is a bull in my neighborhood running around with an arrow sticking into it's ribs. I question whether that whole archery thing is a another costly failure as well. There are probably some great archers out there ...... and a whole lot of bad ones.
    My fathers theory on archery after trying it in the Olympic peninsula of WA as a teenager was " if I had to use archery only to hunt, I'd starve real fast". And though I tried of myself with limited successes, I too feel that way. Too many variables for the average guy....



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  8. #8

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    What a depressing thread. I would agree it ought to go to draw-any bull. It seems as though that is what is going on now, though illegal as it stands (and way too many being harvested!) IMO, it would be better to know what is being harvested rather than having animals rotting in the brush as the result of gutless cowards run amok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt&FishAK View Post
    Forks were legal this year too weren't they?
    Don't know what you mean....this year too? They are legal this year but weren't last year. Last year it was 50/4 ONLY....
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4merguide View Post
    Don't know what you mean....this year too? They are legal this year but weren't last year. Last year it was 50/4 ONLY....
    Regs for this year are spike on at least one side, nothing about a fork...

  11. #11

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    It doesn't help that there's not a very severe consequence for people who self-report. I don't think I'm allowed to post the court reports out of Homer here from last year but this is the most common thing you'd read about illegal cases:

    "pleaded guilty to taking a sublegal moose. He was fined $500 with $200 suspended; ordered to pay $10 to support the Police Training Fund; ordered to forfeit moose meat and antlers; and was placed on probation for one year."

    I know that ethical hunters shouldn't need to face stiff penalties to make ethical choices in the field, but come on. $300 bucks isn't a very expensive gamble on a moose that might be 48" and might be 50". Heck, the state says moose are more valuable than that to out-of-state hunters (non-resident moose tags run $400 bucks).

    Something needs to change. Drawing only might be an answer, much larger fines/penalties might be an answer, maybe an any-bull registration hunt with a permit pick-up in person somewhere in the sub-unit is the answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by limon32 View Post
    Regs for this year are spike on at least one side, nothing about a fork...
    No you're right, I read it wrong.....My eye was seeing "forks" but my mind was thinking "spikes"...lol. I meant to say spikes are legal this year but were not last year. The only thing legal last year were 50/4.
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

  13. #13
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by border collies View Post
    It doesn't help that there's not a very severe consequence for people who self-report. I don't think I'm allowed to post the court reports out of Homer here from last year but this is the most common thing you'd read about illegal cases:

    "pleaded guilty to taking a sublegal moose. He was fined $500 with $200 suspended; ordered to pay $10 to support the Police Training Fund; ordered to forfeit moose meat and antlers; and was placed on probation for one year."

    I know that ethical hunters shouldn't need to face stiff penalties to make ethical choices in the field, but come on. $300 bucks isn't a very expensive gamble on a moose that might be 48" and might be 50". Heck, the state says moose are more valuable than that to out-of-state hunters (non-resident moose tags run $400 bucks).

    Something needs to change. Drawing only might be an answer, much larger fines/penalties might be an answer, maybe an any-bull registration hunt with a permit pick-up in person somewhere in the sub-unit is the answer.
    In my opinion there is a fine line there. You want a fine high enough to discourage shooting sublegal moose but small enough so that people will still self report.
    There will always be idiots who shoot sublegals and I know if the fine is too high they will let them rot and risk getting caught versus turning themselves in for a guaranteed fine etc..
    I would like to see the fines become more standardized. I have heard of a few people who shot sublegals many years ago(10+) and turned themselves in. The fines were $300 for one individual and another got a slap on the wrist and virtually no fine at all.
    Personally I would favor some sort of draw system. I just hate to see this moose go to waste by being left to rot.
    The other type of waste I hate to see is the freezer burnt moose ADF&G has waiting in their freezers waiting for a court date months away.
    A friend/coworker of mine shot a moose that they said was illegal. He eventually got the ticket ripped up as his moose was 100% legal(small spread but 3 browtines). They asked him to turn in his meat.
    He asked what they would do with it. They said just hang it in their freezer until his court date. By then they said it is usually so badly freezer burnt as to be inedible.
    He opted to leave it at the processor and pay for that so if he did loose it at least the food bank could use the meat. They would not reimburse him for processing cost if he lost it in court but he would rather it be eaten by somebody than go to waste.
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    Member cormit's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that regardless of the fine involved .... it remains beyond many hunters ability to accurately judge the antler size. This is the trap. Whether accidental or not ... the end result is .... wasted moose. I don't think changing the fine will change the outcome. With a 'any bull drawing' moose that are shot will be kept. While this reduces hunting opportunity ..... for those that don't draw a permit ..... the current method may not be sustainable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    He asked what they would do with it. They said just hang it in their freezer until his court date. By then they said it is usually so badly freezer burnt as to be inedible.
    He opted to leave it at the processor and pay for that so if he did loose it at least the food bank could use the meat. They would not reimburse him for processing cost if he lost it in court but he would rather it be eaten by somebody than go to waste.
    I know of two people that have had moose confiscated, both found not guilty. When asked to get their moose back the troopers stated the meat was donated to immediately after it was confiscated. That is wrong in my opinion....the troopers simply stole from these guys.
    BK

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4merguide View Post
    No you're right, I read it wrong.....My eye was seeing "forks" but my mind was thinking "spikes"...lol. I meant to say spikes are legal this year but were not last year. The only thing legal last year were 50/4.
    NO worries, just didn't want you name showing up in the blotter!

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    Member Hunt&FishAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4merguide View Post
    Don't know what you mean....this year too? They are legal this year but weren't last year. Last year it was 50/4 ONLY....
    Meant spikes are legal this year, forks are TOO? I knew they weren't last year. Sorry



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  18. #18

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    i like the idea of a draw, then any legal moose. The nice thing about that, is if you limit the tags, eventually there will be bigger moose, meaning most people will opt to shoot a big one (in years to come) then little ones. Anyway, it is always nice to see a lot og game. When I was on the KP 2 years ago, we saw a good number of moose, mostly cows though.

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    Default READ the regs please!

    It shocks me how ignorant people are of the regs and how to understand/apply them before they go out hunting. Even here on this forum of hunters we can't seem to get it together as to what the regs are or aren't...

    I teach middle schoolers this stuff every year and before they are done with my class they know what a legal moose and sheep are and how to sex goats and bears. Most students pass (80% or higher) quite easily after they have taken the time to learn about what they are looking at.

    There are plenty of resources out there to learn the skill of judging moose. Anyone can do it when they take the time to learn.

    Here's a great resource staring my buddy Ted.

    Is this moose legal?
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...ting.resources

    Its a shame that the rest of us are going to have to pay the price because of a bunch of slobs and jackwagons who don't care.

  20. #20

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    I see some moose calves surviving this year and fewer brownies so that's positive.
    How bout instead of a drawing a short (5-7 day?) any bull season every other year.

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