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Thread: Sub Legal Rams

  1. #1

    Default Sub Legal Rams

    So far this year the troopers have issued at least 16 tickets for sub legal rams. That number seems high or maybe not? The crazy part is about a 1/3 of them were out of staters. One guy was even issued a ticket for wanton waste on sheep.

    So, is there a place to find out the stats on sub legal sheep year by year?

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    I looked into this for the last Region III BOG meeting, and according to ADFG at the time the sublegal take was 10% of all harvests, split evenly between resident unguided and nonresident guided. Sorry I can't come up with specific numbers.

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    And some of those outsiders might be hunting with relatives up here. I have known of some people that have shot sub-legal sheep while with a guide though. It seems like a few years ago this was worse, but that is just based on perception, not stats or anything.

    One that surprised me was looking through the stats about a week ago, I was seeing some crazy small sheep being shot. A few were just a few years old, horn lengths in the low teens, etc. Not sure what was going on there, to my knowledge, there weren't any ewe or any ram hunts in this area during the last 10 years (how far back I was looking). Makes you wonder....

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    It should never happen with a guided hunter and if it does, the guide should be held responsible, not the hunter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    It should never happen with a guided hunter and if it does, the guide should be held responsible, not the hunter.
    now now you cant just make a blanket statement without know the facts in each situation, 100% agree if a guide misjudges then he is at fault but thats not always the case in the field!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear View Post
    now now you cant just make a blanket statement without know the facts in each situation, 100% agree if a guide misjudges then he is at fault but thats not always the case in the field!
    Oh really? So a guideways a client shoot a sub legal ram and it's ok for the client to be left holding the bag? That ain't right and the law needs to be changed. Apologies to the OP for sidetracking his thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    Oh really? So a guideways a client shoot a sub legal ram and it's ok for the client to be left holding the bag? That ain't right and the law needs to be changed. Apologies to the OP for sidetracking his thread.

    So if the hunter shoots the wrong sheep after a guide tells him which one is the hunter not at fault....

  8. #8

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    According the harvest information on the web 748 sheep were taken in 2010, 820 in 2011, 730 in 2012, so they're saying that 70-80 sublegals are killed per year?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear View Post
    So if the hunter shoots the wrong sheep after a guide tells him which one is the hunter not at fault....
    You want to nitpicki my post then go right ahead but you know exactly what I was getting at. Not going to argue with you and ruin the mans thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusko View Post
    So far this year the troopers have issued at least 16 tickets for sub legal rams. That number seems high or maybe not? The crazy part is about a 1/3 of them were out of staters. One guy was even issued a ticket for wanton waste on sheep.

    So, is there a place to find out the stats on sub legal sheep year by year?
    Like Mark I have always hear the 10% thing too.. I Have tried before to find the info online but never could.. Seems crazy high especially if you consider how many subpar sheep they let slide..

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    You want to nitpicki my post then go right ahead but you know exactly what I was getting at. Not going to argue with you and ruin the mans thread.
    No nit picking...Stating fact ! blaming guides without having facts is ignorant at best.. already said I agreed that if it is the guides misjudging then he should be responsible but that is not always the case.. statements like yours are the typical guide bashing that happens around here.. guides or non guides should be held accountable for their actions!


    Kusko my apologies for side tracking your thread...

  12. #12

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    Guide bashing? Show me where I bashed a guide on this forum. You can't because I never have but nice try anyways. I said my piece and I'm done with this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    Guide bashing? Show me where I bashed a guide on this forum. You can't because I never have but nice try anyways. I said my piece and I'm done with this thread.

    Easy..
    I simply stated there are situations that it is not always the guides responsibility and you came back like I pissed in your cheerios and said it the guides responsibility for hunters shooting sup legal sheep, I explained a true life situation that happens in the field and you told me I was nit picking your statement even though in my original post I stated guides should be held responsible if they were wrong.... sure sounds like you just want to blame guides for the woes of sheep hunting without hearing both sides of a story..

    Im out!!!

  14. #14

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    Last year when I was sealing my sheep in Tok, there was a list of sheep that were sealed. There were at least 3 on there that were really small. 2-4 year old sheep and their horn lengths were in the teens and low 20's. It would be interesting to hear the mind set of why someone pulled the trigger on half curl or less....

    Of course, there was a 6 year old that had horn lengths of 43 and 42.....

    Gosh, 10 percent seems like a lot.

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    One other point before I head out of here for an aftenoon on the river. I was a bit alarmed at some of the "legal" sheep posted from this season on other threads. In that some were so close, I was surprised the "legal" call was made afield. As annuli counting becomes more popularized as a field-judging method, I agree with what a couple sheep-hunter bios told me. Anyone would be crazy to count 8 rings in the field, full-curl not really sure, and then shoot. We should have some ethical standard whereby if you don't count at least nine rings, you hold off. Otherwise we're gonna have some people go in and F&G or Troopers says it's 7 years old. All I'm saying is at least give yourself, and the sheep, a little bit of leeway.

    On top of that, this weird freak late spring and what I'm seeing with this year's growth ... adds to problems aging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusko View Post
    Last year when I was sealing my sheep in Tok, there was a list of sheep that were sealed. There were at least 3 on there that were really small. 2-4 year old sheep and their horn lengths were in the teens and low 20's. It would be interesting to hear the mind set of why someone pulled the trigger on half curl or less....

    Of course, there was a 6 year old that had horn lengths of 43 and 42.....

    Gosh, 10 percent seems like a lot.
    Holy crap...2 4yo's.. thats insane.. I would love to see that 6 yo...

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear View Post
    Holy crap...2 4yo's.. thats insane.. I would love to see that 6 yo...
    My buddy who hunted with me has a lot of sheep experience and he couldn't believe it. Two of them were "sealed" on the same day. I can only assume that they were hunting together.

    That 6 year old had 13 inches bases also. Theoretically, I wonder how big he could have got if he never broomed off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    One other point before I head out of here for an aftenoon on the river. I was a bit alarmed at some of the "legal" sheep posted from this season on other threads. In that some were so close, I was surprised the "legal" call was made afield. As annuli counting becomes more popularized as a field-judging method, I agree with what a couple sheep-hunter bios told me. Anyone would be crazy to count 8 rings in the field, full-curl not really sure, and then shoot. We should have some ethical standard whereby if you don't count at least nine rings, you hold off. Otherwise we're gonna have some people go in and F&G or Troopers says it's 7 years old. All I'm saying is at least give yourself, and the sheep, a little bit of leeway.

    On top of that, this weird freak late spring and what I'm seeing with this year's growth ... adds to problems aging.
    Mark its gotta change some how. Education on sheep judging and aging is just not getting across and I am not just talking about hunters.. when you have a room full of "educated" folks like adfg and troopers who cant agree on the age or even what full curl is then the system is broken.. I know during my sheep guiding days I passed on many a legal cause I could not get the right look and refused to put a hunter in that kind of situation.. The only time I ever went by age alone were some of the trophy areas where big open curl sheep were part of the norm... ALWAYS GO FOR 2 WAY LEGAL!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusko View Post
    My buddy who hunted with me has a lot of sheep experience and he couldn't believe it. Two of them were "sealed" on the same day. I can only assume that they were hunting together.

    That 6 year old had 13 inches bases also. Theoretically, I wonder how big he could have got if he never broomed off?
    Im with you I wonder how big that 6yo would of been... I ve seen some big 8yo's but never a 6, maybe his brother is out there waiting to be found..lol

  20. #20

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    might be worth finding what the basis is for the 10 percent - maybe the source is guessing. I heard dwc had meetings last winter in fairbanks working on aging sheep. did anyone else hear that?
    wes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear View Post
    Like Mark I have always hear the 10% thing too.. I Have tried before to find the info online but never could.. Seems crazy high especially if you consider how many subpar sheep they let slide..

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