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Thread: What is the Definition of " Subsistence" ?

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    Default What is the Definition of " Subsistence" ?

    If I live off the grid " no roads, no power" and I grow my own vegetables, catch my own fish and shoot my own meat, does that qualify as a subsistence lifestyle? Or do the people from town that I only see once a year that ride their 1000cc paddle tracks with no freight sleds to haul their meat back to town qualify as a subsistence lifestyle? What are your thoughts on what constitutes a Subsistence lifestyle.

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    Off the road system completely who would ever care if that person/family shot a moose or something to feed their selfs or family.

    d

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    From vocabulary.com:

    "Subsistence means the minimal resources that are necessary for survival. If you work for subsistence, you'll probably receive food, water, and lodging (internet access not included)."

    Hmmmmm......lol
    " Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

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    [QUOTE=hunter1951;1318355]Off the road system completely who would ever care if that person/family shot a moose or something to feed their selfs or family.

    Yes, that is what it used to be about. Now every Tom, Dick, and Harry wants his cake and eat it too. I cant count how many people I have come across on the trail hunting in the winter Tier 2 and don't even know how to get here! They lie on the application and Fish and Game just rubber stamps them. Cant blame the people for taking advantage of a flawed system. I blame F&G. I hear town people always spouting off about us rural people saying that if we don't like the prices of things in the bush that we should move to town. Well I say if you want a tier 2 or any subsistence game that you should move from town to the bush!

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    I don't blame F&G, I blame people. Morals and ethics can't be legislated, IMO.

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    Sounds to me you are on the road system? if so I would think you should also be exempt from having a subsistence permit, but like most everybody else you want yours and to hell with the other Alaskans.



    [QUOTE=alexander;1318358]
    Quote Originally Posted by hunter1951 View Post
    Off the road system completely who would ever care if that person/family shot a moose or something to feed their selfs or family.

    Yes, that is what it used to be about. Now every Tom, Dick, and Harry wants his cake and eat it too. I cant count how many people I have come across on the trail hunting in the winter Tier 2 and don't even know how to get here! They lie on the application and Fish and Game just rubber stamps them. Cant blame the people for taking advantage of a flawed system. I blame F&G. I hear town people always spouting off about us rural people saying that if we don't like the prices of things in the bush that we should move to town. Well I say if you want a tier 2 or any subsistence game that you should move from town to the bush!

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    Is it merely about roads? I live off the grid and we eat 99 percent wild game. But there is a strip of gravel leading up to my front door. I'm not a subsistence hunter. I'm just a hunter, like hundreds of generations before me. What's gonna happen when we build a road to Skwentna and Nome? Do all those people then become suburban? How far away from pavement must you live to qualify as rural? 1 mile? 100 yards? It's surely not a simple issue.

    In principle I agree with Alexander, but there seems like a lot of good points to be made from both sides.

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    What's the definition of
    Take
    Harvest
    Work
    Debt
    Reliance
    Need
    Preference
    Special
    Exclusive
    Rural
    Bush
    and any other word Webster has attempted to define over the years? Why do you think there have been so many editions printed of Webster? So much of the stuff we were taught in kindergarten just ain't so. They lied to you then too!!!
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Cant blame the people for taking advantage of a flawed system. I blame F&G.
    I would blame them both. The hunters for falsifying a Tier II application and F&G for not enforcing the laws and regulations. One would think that F&G could inquire as to how a particular hunter meets the eight criteria.

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    [QUOTE=hunter1951;1318368]Sounds to me you are on the road system? if so I would think you should also be exempt from having a subsistence permit, but like most everybody else you want yours and to hell with the other Alaskans.


    No I am not on the road system. I live at the base of Mount Susitna 30 miles from the road system. I pay borough taxes for nothing just like you do. When I talk about the so called subsistence hunters I see on the "TRAIL" I mean a trail that comes from Point Mac across the Susitna game refuge, and three different channels of the Susitna river. I cut my own wood for heat, run on generators, grow and catch my own food. Is that qualification enough for you hunter1951?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkwarthog View Post
    Is it merely about roads? I live off the grid and we eat 99 percent wild game. But there is a strip of gravel leading up to my front door. I'm not a subsistence hunter. I'm just a hunter, like hundreds of generations before me. What's gonna happen when we build a road to Skwentna and Nome? Do all those people then become suburban? How far away from pavement must you live to qualify as rural? 1 mile? 100 yards? It's surely not a simple issue.

    In principle I agree with Alexander, but there seems like a lot of good points to be made from both sides.
    Your right! How many old timers have to move to town for health reasons? Do they still deserve their fair share? Of course they do. Also I think that if you are a long time Alaskan no matter if you live in town or not you should be able to hunt for game meat. I just cant stomach the guys that come out wearing a thousand dollar snowmachine suit on a 1000cc paddle track with no sled and then call themselves subsistence hunters. Worse yet are all the arsewipes that drive them fancy new side by side atv.s in a foot of new snow. Where I'm from it's easy to tell the wanna be from the real thing. The wanna be is running around on his 1000cc paddle track and hunting while wearing his helmut?????????????

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    I found the definition on the F&G site interesting. It would seem to say that merely living off the grid and surviving off the land is not enough for a determination of "subsistence".

    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...ence.customary.

    It's not the definition I would give personally, nor does it seem to be enforced from anecdotes like yours, but it is out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guns_and_labs View Post
    I found the definition on the F&G site interesting. It would seem to say that merely living off the grid and surviving off the land is not enough for a determination of "subsistence".

    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...ence.customary.

    It's not the definition I would give personally, nor does it seem to be enforced from anecdotes like yours, but it is out there.
    To me Subsistence would mean basically living off the land and respecting the land?

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    Well right now there is no road going to those places, I live on the grid my wife cannot eat pork or beef for medical reasons Caribou have their fat layered on top and not marbled within the meat, should she go without red meat? we eat almost 100% Caribou for red meat, like I said before everybody some how thinks they are special and don't want give up their hunting they just want the other guy to give up theirs.

    Oh by the way we also have a place on Lake Susitna that we spend a good deal of time at the house is 17 water miles from the nearest road but it don't count cause me mailing address is on the grid.

    D

    Quote Originally Posted by dkwarthog View Post
    Is it merely about roads? I live off the grid and we eat 99 percent wild game. But there is a strip of gravel leading up to my front door. I'm not a subsistence hunter. I'm just a hunter, like hundreds of generations before me. What's gonna happen when we build a road to Skwentna and Nome? Do all those people then become suburban? How far away from pavement must you live to qualify as rural? 1 mile? 100 yards? It's surely not a simple issue.

    In principle I agree with Alexander, but there seems like a lot of good points to be made from both sides.

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    Subsistence is a political term now, so it's hard to "define." Simply, living off the land is subsistence. The feds double screwed AK with ANILCA and the state must serve it's master and offer "subsistence hunts" whilst following it's own constitution and offer equal access to resources. So again, I say subsistence is a political term and the definition matters not. At some point ANILCA needs to be changed. Land needs to revert back to BLM status and remove the park/preserve/monument suffix before this state becomes a big national park, like what's happening right now. I double dog dare you to try and ride an ATV in Wrangell Park... case in point. ESTABLISHED atv trails for 60 years are now closed--except to special locals who can ride all over hell. Screw the park service and ANILCA...

    My point is this: the facade you see playing out in unit 13 isn't subsistence. It's "subsistence" politically to play sides and please our master.

    Tim

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    I completely agree


    Quote Originally Posted by tccak71 View Post
    Subsistence is a political term now, so it's hard to "define." Simply, living off the land is subsistence. The feds double screwed AK with ANILCA and the state must serve it's master and offer "subsistence hunts" whilst following it's own constitution and offer equal access to resources. So again, I say subsistence is a political term and the definition matters not. At some point ANILCA needs to be changed. Land needs to revert back to BLM status and remove the park/preserve/monument suffix before this state becomes a big national park, like what's happening right now. I double dog dare you to try and ride an ATV in Wrangell Park... case in point. ESTABLISHED atv trails for 60 years are now closed--except to special locals who can ride all over hell. Screw the park service and ANILCA...

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    To me Subsistence would mean basically living off the land and respecting the land?
    I personally would agree.

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    All residences Hope and Cooper Landing, AK. get subsistence rights. We have paved hwy. and Chugach Electric. There are some Million $ homes in Cooper Landing.

    Remember The 5 tracks of land on the Hope Hwy. that we put on the market last spring..........they all sold to NON-Alaskans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Remember The 5 tracks of land on the Hope Hwy. that we put on the market last spring..........they all sold to NON-Alaskans.
    ...who in good time will all politically be labeled "subsistence hunters" once they establish residency... unless there green nut jobs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkwarthog View Post
    I don't blame F&G, I blame people. Morals and ethics can't be legislated, IMO.
    Most of the "people" to be blamed (other than the liars on the apps) are politicans & lawyers. Even though morals and ethics can't be legislated, they keep trying. Imagine that, politicans writing laws on issues (morals & ethics) that they don't understand, because they aren't affected by either.

    Rep points sent.

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