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Thread: Not to stir the pot ... but we can all learn from this

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Not to stir the pot ... but we can all learn from this

    http://peninsulaclarion.com/news/201...izes-to-itself

    Okay, first off, this isn't to rehash the whole Kenai Borough buffer-zone decision.

    What I wanted to get out here after reading the above article about the Kenai Borough assembly devolving at times into the type of debate and decorum that clearly goes against "accepted norms of behavior" in legislative bodies ... and the subsequent mention of Chapter 13 of Mason's Legislative manual ... is that we can all learn from this I believe in how best to interact and debate issues here on this forum.

    To be sure there are some personal differences among some members here that too often tend to detract from good debate and cause threads to be shut down. We aren't making laws here, but still, it's really so similar to what happened to the Kenai borough assembly during that contentious debate.

    We're all adults. Maybe it's time we let past grievances and disagreements go ... keep it about the topic at hand, cease the pushing buttons and stuff like that. Just a thought I had after reading the piece in the Clarion.

    Carry on!

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Amen brother... Amen
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    Agree. 100%.

    However, there is one critical difference......

    Those folks are making decisions that affect people's lives and livelihoods. Lots of folks are affected by the decisions that elected officials make. The stakes are high, and the emotions can get the upper hand. We all understand that. It happens.

    None of that applies to this BB. We ain't makin' decisions, and we aren't affecting anyone's wallet. We don't have that authority. We're just having a discussion. So there is no justification for bad behavior on this BB. Or any other.

    So if I've contributed to any of that, my sincere apologies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    Agree. 100%.

    However, there is one critical difference......

    Those folks are making decisions that affect people's lives and livelihoods....None of that applies to this BB.
    Sure it does. There are members here (like the one who posted just before you) who's dicussions here do in fact influence people's lives and livelihoods. They do this by igniting contentious issues, drumming support for their agendas, submitting proposals, attending meetings, writing magazine articles, and forming crony cliques throughout several sites on the web. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. But those things do in fact affect the emotional, political, and socio-economic driven aspect of our fisheries - all things that affect the lives and livelihoods of sport, commercial, subsistence, or personal use fisherman alike. Some posting here want their agendas to have outcomes, and they go to great extent to get them. When that happens things will get heated and at times, uncivil. People tend to fight for what they have, and what they want. It ain't always pretty.

    As for the Assembly...they are public servants and the public deserves the appology.

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    Smile Not rocket science . . .



    To my mind, this isn't rocket science . . comment on, criticize, abuse, ridicule, and whatever ideas, not people.


    Trouble is, too many people can't tell the difference between themselves and their ideas and as a result, they get their buttons pushed constantly.


    Criticize science, and some science-type takes it personally, freaks out, and responds with personal abuse.


    Make fun of* some aspect of allocation, and some special-interest group member takes it personally, freaks out, and responds with personal abuse.


    Don't criticize/abuse/ridicule commercial fishermen, guides, catch-and-release anglers, other forum members, etc., etc. etc. . . they are people.


    Criticize the idea of commercial fishing, the idea of guiding, the idea of C&R, etc., etc. etc. Abuse the other guy's ideas, don't abuse the other guy. When somebody gets their feelings hurt, their pride offended, or their person insulted, it's usually because they have taken personally an impersonal comment. Defend your ideas, don't attack the other guy.


    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

    —Eleanor Roosevelt


    *satire is a legitimate literary device

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    Posted by accident when I hit the wrong button. Then it will not let me out. Of these technical issues.

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    Member 4merguide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Posted by accident when I hit the wrong button. Then it will not let me out. Of these technical issues.
    Too late.....

    But just so you know, you were right the first time......
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Thumbs up Use the "Ignore" feature . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    . . To be sure there are some personal differences among some members here . .

    I wanted to add a comment on this specific point.


    Quite beyond the purely objective difference between a person and an idea, and keeping our comments confined only to ideas, there are, as noted above. some "personal differences" among members here.


    It's one thing to disagree with some other member's ideas and quite another to develop a venomous, personal dislike for another member. Ideological differences should not develop or translate into personal animosities.


    Following another member around the forum with negative, personal references is, well, childish.


    John

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    Member 4merguide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post

    Following another member around the forum with negative, personal references is, well, childish.


    John
    And the same could be said about you......
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post


    To my mind, this isn't rocket science . . comment on, criticize, abuse, ridicule, and whatever ideas, not people.


    Trouble is, too many people can't tell the difference between themselves and their ideas and as a result, they get their buttons pushed constantly...
    And with that awareness comes the knowledge that certain comments are going to incite a negative response from someone who doesn't see the distinction. Therefore it's up to the poster to take the high road by making their point without inciting a riot.

    BUT..... There's a perverse part of us that sometimes revels in our own cleverness; that pushes us to say things in such a way that we know will trigger a negative response, while providing cover for ourselves. I figure if a guy is smart enough to know his adversary is going to feel attacked, he's smart enough to know how not to push his buttons.

    Great thread, Mark! This issue causes more work for our mods than anything else. If the "clever guys" could just decide not to do that, then all we'd have left are the deliberate ones who don't care. Those are easy. The other kind cause us to waste hours trying to remove the cancer from threads that have so much good stuff mixed with the toxic stuff.

    For me, in the end it's about treating people with respect, whether or not I agree with them.

    Mike
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    Smile Tip-toe through the tulips . . . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    And with that awareness comes the knowledge that certain comments are going to incite a negative response from someone who doesn't see the distinction. Therefore it's up to the poster to take the high road by making their point without inciting a riot. BUT..... There's a perverse part of us that sometimes revels in our own cleverness; that pushes us to say things in such a way that we know will trigger a negative response, while providing cover for ourselves. I figure if a guy is smart enough to know his adversary is going to feel attacked, he's smart enough to know how not to push his buttons.

    Great thread, Mark! This is an issue that causes more work for our mods than anything else. If the "clever guys" could just decide not to do that, then all we'd have left are the deliberate ones who don't care. Those are easy. The other kind cause us to waste hours trying to remove the cancer from threads that have so much good stuff mixed with the toxic stuff.

    For me, in the end it's about treating people with respect, whether or not I agree with them.

    Mike



    Me too . . you bet . . treat people with respect. Ideas are a different story.


    Ideas, in my mind, are fair game . . open season . . no bag limit.


    Some ideas are just plain evil . . some ideas are wrong . . some ideas are self-aggrandizing and egotistic.


    Some ideas don't deserve respect.


    The day ideas aren't fair game here is the day these fora lose a lot of their value in my mind.


    Some people are always gonna get pissed off and escalate the rhetoric when their ideas are assaulted, I don't care how much the criticism is sugar-coated or how well it's disguised as a sugar-tit.


    Some people like to pitch hardball but whine when they get a hardball in return.


    And some people have very, very fragile egos.

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    Member 4merguide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post

    Ideas, in my mind, are fair game . . open season . . no bag limit.

    You said it there......in "YOUR" mind......

    And THAT for some reason seems to make it all ok.......

    What a freekin' crock.....!!!
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Thumbs up hear hear

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    ...To be sure there are some personal differences among some members here that too often tend to detract from good debate ... Maybe it's time we let past grievances and disagreements go ...
    I'll admit to feeling very ambivalent on this subject one week ago when these words were written. I won't explain why, because these are pretty touchy subjects.

    But in the intervening week I've lost my ambivalence and now agree with your thought and suggestion on this. I've seen two other members here do some amount of what you encourage, plus I myself have done a bit of that as well since you wrote those words.

    It really is a good idea. Of course its a lot harder done than said, but seeing some amount of activity along these lines from a total of 3 people in the last week has encouraged me.

    Sorry to be cryptic but I shouldn't be specific here/now or I wouldn't be abiding by the spirit of the OP - which is not what I choose.

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