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Thread: Proposed extension to Dipnet Season - Show your support if you agree

  1. #1

    Default Proposed extension to Dipnet Season - Show your support if you agree

    Press release by Senator Wielenchowski
    http://alaskasenatedems.com/wielecho...ipnet-fishery/

    Not sure there are many fish left, but I think it would show the strength of dipnetting and sportfishing groups if a simple email could be sent to Commissioner Campbell.

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Kardinal-
    these kinds of extensions are never ending and people are always asking for them. The "But I wasn't there to get mine..." mentality could extend to many fish and game resources including moose and caribou. Some years ago, we had a very warm summer in SC Alaska, and people were saying that it caused the moose to not go into rut, and therefore the season should be extended, because they didn't get theirs.
    Populist politics is an ugly admixture to resource management. Movements and behaviors of animals are only partially predictable.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    Kardinal-
    these kinds of extensions are never ending and people are always asking for them. The "But I wasn't there to get mine..." mentality could extend to many fish and game resources including moose and caribou. Some years ago, we had a very warm summer in SC Alaska, and people were saying that it caused the moose to not go into rut, and therefore the season should be extended, because they didn't get theirs.
    Populist politics is an ugly admixture to resource management. Movements and behaviors of animals are only partially predictable.
    +1 I'd rep ya if I could.
    Ballot box biology is never a good idea. I have seen the bad results in other states and it wasn't pretty. More deer died from doing what the public thought was good than would have otherwise and it was bad.
    Lets leave the fisheries management to those who at least have an idea about what their doing. It may not be perfect management but they certainly do better than Joe public can do.
    I know many of us think we could do better but that is not reality.
    I for one cannot support this ill thought out proposal.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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    Interesting enough - "Contact your State Senator if you don't like the answer your getting." was the response folks in my neighborhood received when we asked the Muni about some speed bumps in our neighborhood.

    So if/when the ADFG folks say " If you don't like what we're doing, talk to your Senators..."

    Looks like the folks in this Senator's district did just that - and he's doing what he signed up for which is representing his constituents.

    All of that being said - I agree with Chris on this - Ballot Box biology is a bad idea.
    When all else fails...ask your old-man.


    AKArcher

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    I dunno guys, there is one thing in that article that makes a lot of sense:

    "There have been numerous emergency openers for the commercial fleet to help manage the escapement levels,” Wielechowski said. “As a matter of fairness and biological necessity, the Parnell Administration should take immediate action to ensure that ALL Alaskans who simply want fish to eat get their fair share.”

    While I agree with the group's general concern about "ballot box biology," IF the F&G goals have been met AND there are still fish in the river, then F&G should open a Dipnet ONLY extension by EO.

    There is another commercial vs dipnet thread on here, and, while I've stated that commercial fishermen should be seen as allies, not enemies, and as a benefit to the state, this presents an opportunity for dipnetters to finish filling their tags. IF it can be done in a biologically responsible manner.

    I made two trips to the peninsula this year, both planned for "off days" when the fleet would be in port, and BOTH times F&G issued EO's the night before and sent the fleet out. I came back with 8 fish and 3 fish for the year.

    Time for F&G to do something for the little guy.

  6. #6

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    Just posting for information. Much like the meeting this evening at the hatchery, it didn't seem to get much circulation.

    Merely a public service msg. Lol.

    Edit: I agree with the non ballot box biology for the most part. But priority, allocation, and such can be prioritized differently then the trained biologists can manage to that. I've benefitted from the UCI commercial, sport, and PU fisheries. My main concern is the validity of the sonar counts. Didn't seem to jive with decades on the river. And yes I did manage to rod and reel a bunch during the "peak" but they didn't seem close to the counts. But that's not enough evidence in and of itself.


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    I have a question.

    How would opening an extra week affect the Coho run? Adding a week *might* get into the silver run spike from what I saw on the historical charts if I am reading them right.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Dipnetting never was a guarantee. In fact harvest of any fish and game never has been.
    I also wonder how many people have already sent in their cards?
    Would that not be an issue? I could see people screaming that they need new cards because they were not prepared and sent them in.
    Then how do we make sure they do not exceed their limits between the two cards.
    I think the best thing for the public would be for the Board Of Fish to take this up for future years giving ADF&G the option on years such as this to give an extension. That way it is in the management plan and the legalities are already sorted out and the verbage is drafted up.
    But I don't believe it should be done this year just because a few people didn't get their fish.
    As Sayak pointed out what's next if we pass this? Extended moose or caribou seasons when XX% don't get their animal?
    Can I sue the state if my usual blueberry patch doesn't produce the 5 gallons I am used to getting? It is on state land and I depend on it so my family doesn't starve.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi L View Post
    I have a question.

    How would opening an extra week affect the Coho run? Adding a week *might* get into the silver run spike from what I saw on the historical charts if I am reading them right.
    As a cook inlet drifter, I have a lot of problems with the dipnet fishery. That being said, I would support the extension to help prevent overescapement. I do believe that at this time, coho harvest would exceed sockeye harvest and some would have problems with that. I wonder what krsa's stance on this issue would be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    As a cook inlet drifter, I have a lot of problems with the dipnet fishery. .
     
     
     
    First off, I am not at all trying to pick a fight, just the opposite and merely curious what you see from your view as problems with the dipnet fishery and possibly dipnetters in general?
     
    I will be the first to agree that there are some that are just plain rude, as well as the pigs, but by enlarge I have found most dipnetters very friendly and courteous and regardless of the method of harvesting, very good control does need to be kept to insure that this resource will be around indefinitely. Sometimes we don’t like it, sometimes we don’t understand it, sometimes the best educated theories or guesses are wrong, or nature throws a snag into the equation no one expected, but it is a lot better for all of the users to get along and mutually respect each other than be feuding.
     
    As to the interaction of dipnetters and those in commercial boats. Most of the time I wind up at Kasilof and on the north shore and the vast majority of dipnetters and commercial folks seem to be respectful of each other from what I have seen. However, all it takes are a few to give the whole group a bad wrap, it is just plain rude to deliberately come in faster than is necessary, or at a speed that insures a big wake and then to add insult to injury to have the guy at the wheel sneer or laugh as they either get the dipnetters wet, or for the netters to do all they can to get back closer to shore so they don’t get swamped. Too many commercial folks come in at reasonable speeds with minimal wake, so the argument that you have to is unfounded as from what I have observed, most have no problem. Maybe their parents did a better job of raising them, or maybe they just are naturally courteous folks. It is also pretty darned evident when certain boats deliberately swing over closer to the dipnet line, and without mentioning names, when I see these boats coming, I know what is in store and I back up well ahead of time. I personally don’t care to get wet, nor am I a youngster any longer, but on more than one occasion I have seen women, kids, and old codgers like myself put in a bad way by thoughtless boats or even skiffs deliberately trying to screw with the dipnetters. On the other hand, most of the commercial guys are very courteous and accommodating and I can assure you we do appreciate it. I always try to wave a greeting when they look over as a sign of mutual respect to another user. Some of us actually will have a short conversation between boats and dipnetters and I am sure it makes for a lot better day for both when things are friendly.
     
    It is hard, and maybe not entirely possible to eliminate all the illegal users, disrespectful of the laws and resource, the pigs, and the just plain rude people be they dipnetters, or commercial guys, but let me say for myself at least, I appreciate those that are respectful, friendly, and courteous, regardless of who they are.

  11. #11

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    uhldwm,

    I am not going to hijack this thread into a debate about the dipnet fishery. The many problems have been posted over and over again on various threads. Some good news, the city manager said the beaches were left cleaner this year!

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    Sorry, I wasn't suggesting hijacking this thread. Maybe starting another to let us know what the issues are from yours and others prospective and maybe we can work around them, or at least some of them. I am not wanting to offend anyone unless they offend me, or they need offending. There are new people on the forum every year and maybe they could benefit from your observations stated in a positive way and suggestions from all of us how to make the whole experience better for all sides. My idea is not for any of us to stand around like a bunch of little boys, holding our noses and pointing at someone else.
     
     
     
    As to extending the season, I would be for it if it is beneficial to the resource as well as the harvesters, all the harvesters and all the species of salmon possibly affected. Here where I live, in Knik, near Fish Creek, the best laid plans by the brightest minds in F&G sure don’t seem to have worked as I can remember when snagging here in the salt water was perfectly legal as well as personal use setnetting. I have also talked to old timers that remember when the fish ran bank to bank supposedly, so thick you could darned near walk across them. Now again this year Fish Creek will be closed as we may not even reach minimum escapement.

  13. #13

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    uhldwm-
    Here I go with the hijack. As far as Fish Creek, as a local resident, I am sure you are aware that Fish Creek has Pike and flows out of Big Lake which has been heavily developed and exceeds state standards for hydrocarbon pollution. I am sure you are also aware that there was a hatchery in operation on Fish Creek from 1977 through 1993, stocking 13.4 million coho during that time. Sockeye stocking was discontinued in 2008 due to poor smolt survival. Perhaps these facts are part of the reason Fish Cr. may not meet its minimum escapement. Of course for many,and I am not directing this at you, it is easier to just blame it all on overharvest by one of the user groups

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    over escapement is a myth and junk science - commie fishers use it to justify their greedy activities

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook58 View Post
    over escapement is a myth and junk science - commie fishers use it to justify their greedy activities

    You are wrong

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    Default not commies..

    Agree with the part about over escapement but have to disagree with the commie part- the comm fishers are actually greedy capitalists.

    Anyway - i'll give you your first rep point.

    Carry on!

    Quote Originally Posted by nanook58 View Post
    over escapement is a myth and junk science - commie fishers use it to justify their greedy activities
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Question over escapement

    I've been looking for a thread that discusses the technical side of over escapement; looks like others have too. Probably wouldn't work though, since it would get bogged down at the level of stone throwing over fishery mgmt politics.

    There are some aspects of the technical side today's popular opinion that I'm not comfortable with; I do understand carrying capacity in land-dwelling game but it seems that there is much to salmon movement that is 100% different than any land-dwellers, which brings up other questions that are not answered sufficiently.

    The King of Fish has many answers within it, but if you try to put it to use in understanding what goes on here in Alaska, that same book also brings up a number of questions as well I think. Anyway, off topic I know, I'm asking if there's a thread to go to for me and the previous three posters, and anyone else, about over escapement technical details.

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    Thumbs up Good idea . .

    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    I've been looking for a thread that discusses the technical side of over escapement; looks like others have too. Probably wouldn't work though, since it would get bogged down at the level of stone throwing over fishery mgmt politics.

    There are some aspects of the technical side today's popular opinion that I'm not comfortable with; I do understand carrying capacity in land-dwelling game but it seems that there is much to salmon movement that is 100% different than any land-dwellers, which brings up other questions that are not answered sufficiently.

    The King of Fish has many answers within it, but if you try to put it to use in understanding what goes on here in Alaska, that same book also brings up a number of questions as well I think. Anyway, off topic I know, I'm asking if there's a thread to go to for me and the previous three posters, and anyone else, about over escapement technical details.



    Good idea, FM, please start a new thread . . fascinating subject. While the principle remains the same—sustained yield—between, say, cattle and salmon, the conditions are immeasurably different. As Dr. Montgomery noted in King of Fish, the "inherent uncertainty of the natural sciences" such as geology, forestry, biology, oceanography, geomorphology, hydrology, and more preclude the kind of control and predictability available to a rancher running cattle on a fixed piece of land.


    Overescapement is a question of sustained yield in mankind's incessant efforts to wrest his sustenance from the earth's potential bounty. Good idea . . post a new thread . .

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    Default possible over escapement issues thread(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Good idea, FM, please start a new thread . . fascinating subject. While the principle remains the same—sustained yield—between, say, cattle and salmon, the conditions are immeasurably different. As Dr. Montgomery noted in King of Fish, the "inherent uncertainty of the natural sciences" such as geology, forestry, biology, oceanography, geomorphology, hydrology, and more preclude the kind of control and predictability available to a rancher running cattle on a fixed piece of land.

    Overescapement is a question of sustained yield in mankind's incessant efforts to wrest his sustenance from the earth's potential bounty. Good idea . . post a new thread . .
    I think so too. Not positive about how to go about doing so though.

    On first blush, I'd like to start two threads:

    1) Technical aspects of over escapement issues including Q & A of "how do they do this" and opinions of "this is how they should accomplish that". Even "How many weirs must there be to achieve a less than 5 % total error rate?", or what does a weir cost, fully burdened, per year.

    2) political and management concerns regarding over escapement issues, including the various effects on the commercial fisheries, politics within F&G, Juneau, the Federal Government, or other countries or alliances, as with all the "where will the money come from" concerns. Constitutionality issues clearly are here, along with effects if more/less taxation, regulation, etc.

    Am I missing a third? Is it that obvious I'm putting the interesting topics all in the first group and all the BS nonsense in the second?

    Feedback, or go with it?

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