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Thread: 338-06 AI vs 325 wsm

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Default 338-06 AI vs 325 wsm

    what are the velocity differences between the two with 200 grain and 225 grain bullets? bigswede claimed in one of his posts that his handloads push 2900 fps with a 200 grainer.

    what are the advantages of the 325 wsm over the 338-06 AI? what are the case capacities between the two?

  2. #2

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    338-06 AI big advantage is generally 4+1 where as 325 WSM is 3+1. Not a deal breaker for me obviously as I am firmly in the 325 WSM camp and have 8 rounds on my stock as it is, but that is the main advantage I see.

    But if I can get 2800-2850 out of an 18" barrel I think 24" barrel could get up nearly 3000 fps without too much trobule, I think Stid was getting over 3000 fps with his.

    I think not having to deal with fireforming and able to buy brass more readily for the 325 WSM than 338-06 AI atleast locally would favor the 325 WSM as well. Now I was only able to get 2700 fps with a 220 grain Woodleigh with my 18" barrel but again I think 2850+ or nearly 2900 could be doable with a 24" barrel. I found I gave up roughly 30 fps per inch in my chopped barrel, but I realize that changes with load and isn't completely linear either.

    I was very close to getting a 338-06 out of a Kimber Montana 84L and month but ended up getting a 2nd 325 WSM for simplicity since I already had 2 other rifles in that cartridge to keep things simple. If going on a dedicated brown bear hunt I'll still bring the 338 WM though with 250 NPTs or 225 TTSXs as there is no replacement for displacement and neither can run with a 338 WM when you start talking above 220-225 grainers especially.

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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    what are the velocity differences between the two with 200 grain and 225 grain bullets? bigswede claimed in one of his posts that his handloads push 2900 fps with a 200 grainer.

    what are the advantages of the 325 wsm over the 338-06 AI? what are the case capacities between the two?
    At normal range...probably not a nickel's difference between them. I doubt you could do anything with one your couldn't do with the other.

    3+1 or 4/5+1 and the short action/long action weight is about it. A big difference is logistics- you can buy factory .325 and most of it is good ammo that reaches claimed MV in 24" barrels. .338-06 AI is pretty much a hand load only proposition which is a bummer.

    For the limited amount I've messed with the .325, I'm impressed. A lot of folks equate it with the .338WM in killing power ...I'm not quite there but it's close. If I ever shoot the barrel out of my much loved .300WSM it will come back to life as a .325. When I bought it, there was an identical .325 right beside it on the rack.... woulda, coulda, shoulda.... story of my life.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    338-06 has a 4 or 5 round magazine...... the 325 WSM has 3 rounds.
    338 caliber vs 325 (really an 8mm) caliber. 338 has more bullets available.
    325 WSM not known for amazing accuracy like the 300 and 270 WSMs.
    338-06 will handle longer and heavier bullets better.

    From a 22 inch barrel

    338-06 A.I. ::: 200 gr Barnes X bullet, 58 grains of IMR 4064 = 2,900 fps.
    :::::::::::::::::. 225 gr A-Frame bullet, 55 grains of RL-15 = 2,600 fps
    :::::::::::::::::::250 grain Hornady, 43 grains of H-4350 = 2,525 fps


    325WSM::::200 gr Barnes , 67grains H-4350 = 2,920
    ::::::::::::::::::::::220 gr Sierra, 41.5 grains H-4350 = 2,655 fps
    ::::::::::::::::::::::250 grain bullet oh wait it does not work....
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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    I've been told that you can resize 280 AI cases to 338-06 AI and be done with it. I also wonder how easy it would be to buy a brand new kimber 84l in 280 AI, and simply have it rebored along with the all the techy stuff involved with making the throat proper. Lop that 24 inch barrel down to 20.5", and the reboring will remove alot of metal. The gun would go from 6 lbs to 5 3/4 lbs I'd reckon......all with a five round magazine.

    I'm not certain what is the dimensional differences between the two AI cases, but resizing 280 AI cases would be ideal. Is it an accurate opinion to view the 338-06 AI as a ballistic equal to the 325 WSM?? 200 grain accubonds and 300 grain woodleigh roundnose welcores would be my preference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    I've been told that you can resize 280 AI cases to 338-06 AI and be done with it. I also wonder how easy it would be to buy a brand new kimber 84l in 280 AI, and simply have it rebored along with the all the techy stuff involved with making the throat proper. Lop that 24 inch barrel down to 20.5", and the reboring will remove alot of metal. The gun would go from 6 lbs to 5 3/4 lbs I'd reckon......all with a five round magazine.

    I'm not certain what is the dimensional differences between the two AI cases, but resizing 280 AI cases would be ideal. Is it an accurate opinion to view the 338-06 AI as a ballistic equal to the 325 WSM?? 200 grain accubonds and 300 grain woodleigh roundnose welcores would be my preference.
    Mainer, you are describing the project rifle I PM ya about last night....to be clear the Kimber won't be a 5 round magazine, unless you count one in the chamber, but there are still only for in the magazine.

    You can still load 250 grain Woodleighs in a 325 but haven't done it yet. But the 200 grain NAB is still longer than the 250 Woodleigh round nose. Not sure where Float pilot got his number from but if I can best the number he has listed for a 22" barrel in a 18" barrel if you go to a 20.5" you'd but looking more in the neighborhood of 2750 for the 220s.

    By the time you put the money into modifying a 84L to a 338-06 AI with a rebore or rebarrel and what not you'd be looking at the price of a Browning TI in 325 WSM which will be about 10% lighter as well. Just ran the numbers on doing all of this and what I came up with. But if you wanna shoot 300 grainers then sure go to a 338-06 I guess...or better yet a 35 Whelen if you wanna stay in the 06 sized case.

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    I don't understand the magazine capacities listed on their website. on the 84 l select grade, or the stainless one, they list it as five round magazine and avail in 280 AI. if you go montana or mountain ascent, the capacity drops down to 4. is it 4 round mag capacity accross the board, or is it only 4 round magazine capacity for only the montana and the mtn ascent?

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    I think what one will do so will the other. I don't think an animal will know the difference which one hit him. My theory is, if it will shoot 50+grs of powder under a 180+gr bullet, it will easily kill anything in Ak., if you put the correct bullet in the correct spot. And there are folks that have done the job with less than that.

    If you really need 5 in the mag, maybe a little more range time is in order.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    The original recipe 338-06 easily outperforms the 325 wsm. Why bother with the additional hassle of the A.I.? Ackley only made the A.I. version to silence those who were incessantly hounding him to do so. His contention was that the 338-06 was by definition "already improved" and little was to be gained by adding the ever so slightly exaggerated shoulder. Forming the original recipe 338-06 is simplicity itself, requiring only a single pass with a tapered expander ball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    I don't understand the magazine capacities listed on their website. on the 84 l select grade, or the stainless one, they list it as five round magazine and avail in 280 AI. if you go montana or mountain ascent, the capacity drops down to 4. is it 4 round mag capacity accross the board, or is it only 4 round magazine capacity for only the montana and the mtn ascent?
    My Kimber Montana holds 4 down...my classic holds 5 down. When you go to the solid bottom you lose one round of mag capacity.
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    well, if the 280 AI factory brass easily resizes to 338-06 AI with no fire-forming, I'd have no qualms with that. It's more than just a shoulder, it's more body and less neck as far as I can tell. My 9.3x62 brass takes 64 grains of mr-2000, giving 2,460 fps with a 300 grainer from a 20" barrel. That's a bit more capacity than a standard 35 whelen case.......something like 10 grains more. I wonder if the same situation exists with the AI version of the 338-06??

    I also wonder, could 9.3x62 brass be sized down to .338/9.3x62? I know the hawk/scovill version is something based of the 9.3x62 case.....but I don't know what other dimensional changes they made for example: blowing out the case to remove the taper or changing the angle of the shoulder.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    You can fireform the 338-06 to A.I. without any issue, but velocity gain probably won't be any more than 150 fps; not value added in my book.
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    Quality Cartridge Company will sell you 338-06 AI brass that is ready to go and is actually headstamped correctly. ( Just in case you want to go hunting in Africa where the rifle and headstamps must match. )

    I would rather go with a regular 338-06 ( 338-06 A-Square) and just buy A-square, Weatherby or Quality brass if I need it to say 338-06

    I have tried a few AI cartridges and they do not make as much sense now as they did 45 years ago when there were not as many powders available.

    Plus no moose in the world cares if the muzzle velocity of a 225 grain Accubond is 2,700 or 2,800 fps...
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    I've long been a fan of .338 chamberings, that said I've done quite a bit of load work with Kimber Montana 325 WSM's and 220 Sierra's - You can get an honest and safe 2800+ with 62 grains of imr 4007ssc in a W/W case and 215M primer, I've been clear to 65 grains in 2 Kimbers but I don't see anything to be gained beyond the 62 mark - I had to send mine back to Kimber for a repair, when it returns I'll try some small changes - I asked Nosler to consider a 220 Accubond in 8mm, they were short and to the point with me, said it would be too long (yeah right) but my limited kill experience with the 220 SBT does a pretty good job and the flight numbers are good

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    If you really need 5 in the mag, maybe a little more range time is in order.
    I know via internet, the 5 in the mag preference may be difficult for you to understand, so I'll describe to you why the preference:

    I had just pushed through a class lll whitewater gorge in a canoe, my nerves were shot, I had only angel hair pasta and some borrowed bear lard left. About two weeks prior, I had sighted in my 9.3x62 for the open sights. It worked well on a beaver swimming about 70 yds away. We ate good for days. I saw no beaver swimming while running back to the Yukon off this smaller river. I had filled my cooler with some creek ice, I was prepared for a bear sighting. Some time around midnight, my son had spotted a bear swimming across the river. I bashed the bow up on the opposite bank and waited for him to swim to the other side. I took aim at the big bear, and drilled him with a 285 grain lapua mega. He fell directly on his brisket in the muddy bank. I shucked in another, hit him again while he climbed the bank. He still ran. My third shot was a miss as he bolted into rasberry brush. There was blood everywhere as we tracked him through the dim light. Every so often, I found blood misted on alder n willow leaves 9-10 ft above the forest floor where he would sneeze a mist while standing up........looking for me as I tracked him. I could no longer hear the river, he ran that deep into the woods. It began to rain heavily, and the thinning blood trail was washed away. Through the stress of running whitewater, the chaos, I forgot to reload. Still had two left, one in the chamber, and one in the internal mag.

    During this past moose hunting season, what was supposed to be an early season scouting trip, turned into a big bull moose on the second day of the season. I shot once, hit him in the lungs. I shot my second shot, and missed due to the heavy willow brush (deflection) he was feeding in. I shot a third time right through the front quarter bones, dropping him instantly. I soon discovered that I forgot extra bullets. Stupid mistake. It was 4:00 pm when the knife hit the moose. by the time I had half the moose loaded into the boat, it was almost dark. It took two precious hours of daylight to cut sweepers and wood piles with a handsaw in order to get to the downed bull with the canoe. It was obvious that I wouldn't make it off that skinny creek, and back to base camp some 20-30 creek miles away. We over-nighted on the kill. A large grizzly came into spike camp that night because he winded my moose. Only had two left in the rifle. I even forgot my 44 magnum revolver. All I had was a 22 magnum pistol in the survival kit. I used it to make noise every time the bear got close to the kill. It was too dark to take aim with those two precious rifle bullets left. Figured I'd save them in case he charged spike camp. I think the fire kept him from doing so.

    If you think "range time" is in order.........order away. I could give a rat's arse.

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    One would be better served to get a 84L in a 06 to do the rebore job... By the time you got done reboring the 280 ai to a 338-06 ai that barrel be so **** thin **** after two shots barrel be smoking ass hot... I like the 325 wsm you cant go wrong with it... Are you looking for a lightweight rifle that will push a 200gr bullet over 2900? I would then buy a kimber montana in a 325 wsm... If you want a 338 i would get the kimber montana in a 338 win mag shoot 210 nosler partition...

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    Sorry for hurting your feelings. I just didn't realize the only place you could carry spare ammo was in your rifles magazine.

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    Mainer might look into a shell holder on your stock (no not the ones that you just lose your rounds as soon as you enter a singel patch of alders) Been using one the past year that I like pretty well that keeps 8 shells on it and they are covered. Been in on shooting two grizz this spring. Each time before going up to it or starting to track I re top of the mag. Always with the rifle and not on your belt or some pocket. So long as you got your rifle you'll have your rounds. Thus 3+1 vs 4 or 5+1 doesn't matter to me nearly that much.

    I would also take Float Pilots and also your own advice and now worry about the extra 100 fps in velocity and stick with the standard 338-06.

    323,

    84L Montanas have the same .560 muzzle diameter regardless of if it is a .277 or a .308 caliber diameter. So getting a 280 AI rifle and reboring it isn't going to matter at all vs. a 30-06....same barrel thickness remaining. The 270 84L Montanas go for the cheapest on GB for some reason which is what I was going to buy when I was thinking of going to bulid a 338-06 Montana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska_Lanche View Post
    Mainer might look into a shell holder on your stock (no not the ones that you just lose your rounds as soon as you enter a singel patch of alders) Been using one the past year that I like pretty well that keeps 8 shells on it and they are covered. Been in on shooting two grizz this spring. Each time before going up to it or starting to track I re top of the mag. Always with the rifle and not on your belt or some pocket. So long as you got your rifle you'll have your rounds. Thus 3+1 vs 4 or 5+1 doesn't matter to me nearly that much.

    I would also take Float Pilots and also your own advice and now worry about the extra 100 fps in velocity and stick with the standard 338-06.

    323,

    84L Montanas have the same .560 muzzle diameter regardless of if it is a .277 or a .308 caliber diameter. So getting a 280 AI rifle and reboring it isn't going to matter at all vs. a 30-06....same barrel thickness remaining. The 270 84L Montanas go for the cheapest on GB for some reason which is what I was going to buy when I was thinking of going to bulid a 338-06 Montana.
    Thats good info for sure on the barrels thanks... With that i wouldn't even rebore one, i buy a #2 contour in the appropriate caliber from one of the top barrel makers and screw it on the montanan action...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 323 View Post
    Thats good info for sure on the barrels thanks... With that i wouldn't even rebore one, i buy a #2 contour in the appropriate caliber from one of the top barrel makers and screw it on the montanan action...
    Thanks what I was gonna do after talking with my gunsmith.....

    But alas I'm in the 325 WSM camp and won't be doing this. But will be rebarreling my 308 Montana to a 260 Rem. Enough of a thread drift.

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