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Thread: Help stop kasilof terminal fishery!!!!

  1. #1

    Default Help stop kasilof terminal fishery!!!!

    The Kasilof set and drift gillnet terminal fishery has been opened to help stem the rush of fish to the Kasilof river. Unfortunately, this will do nothing to reduce Kenai or Kasilof King harvests, and nothing to help keep the Kenai from overescaping as well. Help stop this fishery. All users would be better off with a traditional setnet fishery than with this monster.

    The entire East Side beach is rippling with sockeye. All data shows that Kenai Kings are late again, and will likely make their goal. All indications are that the Kasilof has exceeded its Sockeye goal, and the Kenai likely will as well.

    Shame on you ADFG. This was a terrible call. It will kill every King that enters the Kasilof river, regardless of what river it's headed to.

  2. #2
    Member SkinnyD's Avatar
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    Can we end bear baiting and military housing allowances while we're at it?
    Passing up shots on mergansers since 1992.


  3. #3

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    This is the fisheries management forum. Your looking for the 'I'm trying to cover my idiocy with sarcasm that makes no sense' forum.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    All data shows that Kenai Kings are late again, and will likely make their goal.
    You must be looking at different data than I am Mr. S. it may turn out to be true but there's no way to tell at this point.

  5. #5

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    Ok, whatever. If you want to argue about data from a flawed counting system and ignore the strength of the rest of the king runs inlet-wide, or the ADFG projection that we will make the Kenai King goal, we can do that later. In the meantime, how does opening the terminal area help ANYONE, except maybe the guys at the ADFG regional level who are gaining political points and getting slaps on the back from the organization that only respects one side of an escapement goal, eavesdrops on private conversations, plays dirty politics, and writes you checks?

  6. #6
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Ok, whatever. If you want to argue about data from a flawed counting system and ignore the strength of the rest of the king runs inlet-wide, or the ADFG projection that we will make the Kenai King goal, we can do that later. In the meantime, how does opening the terminal area help ANYONE, except maybe the guys at the ADFG regional level who are gaining political points and getting slaps on the back from the organization that only respects one side of an escapement goal, eavesdrops on private conversations, plays dirty politics, and writes you checks?
    Which king runs' strengths are being ignored, Smith? Those in the Little Su, Ship Creek, Anchor Creek or Deep Creek? Those on the Parks Hwy streams which remained closed to retention all season, due to low numbers? praytell... which runs have sufficient strength to call for additional harvest? And in a mixed stock fishery, are there any stocks weak enough that measures to increase exploitation of the strong stocks will cause them to drop below the sustainable threshold?

  7. #7

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    Many King escapements throughout inlet streams are ahead of last year and on track to make goals, even with harvest - JUST LIKE THE LR KENAI KINGS ARE.

    This free-for all terminal fishery will screw many setnetters who are watching a massive Kenai and Kasilof run slip by. It will also screw Kasilof river sport and PU fishermen, because EVERYTHING near that river is going to die tomorrow, including possibly some people as that place will be a freaking zoo. It will also screw Kenai fishermen of all creeds, as these terminal guys are gonna whack the crap outta the Kings bound for both rivers tomorrow. Oh, yeah, and at 11,000 Sockeye an hour going through the Kenai, it will be overescaped in a couple days just like the Kasilof ALREADY IS.

    I'm sure you're happy though Willphish, because instead of using Kenai/Kasilof setnets that can bang more Sockeye in an opener than the drifters will ever hope to, ADFG opened up the drift fleet to try and soak up Kenai reds. Should really help your situation up there. Especially with that SW wind expected to blow 20kts and put fish on the beach.

    Comon, this is screwed up and bad for everyone. How can you defend this decision? Time for some new blood in the upper echelons of ADFG.

  8. #8
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    Default Laying off the shoulders and fishing the meat of the run.

    Agreed that NOW is the time to deploy the ESSN's for maximum sockeye extraction per expended king.

    Admittedly in hindsight, last week's regular openers should not have been fished with set nets... well at least in two stat areas. Those should have been closed to the regular openers when it was fully known there were NO SOCKEYE on the beaches adjacent to the Kenai mouth. That was a high price to pay (in terms of Kenai kings) for a paltry sockeye harvest.

    Had those beach kings been expended this week, the sockeye harvest would be two orders of magnitude greater.

    I think we are paying the price of WAY overcompensating for what happened in 2012.

    ESSN's got only two openers before they got shut down last year. 2013 is whole different story. The ESSN's should be rejoicing.

    Chill and relax from one helluva glory day y'day, tb. Lord knows it was a back-breaking 16 hours. Thurs will be here soon enough, and you get to do it all over again.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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  9. #9

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    Oh, yeah I forgot.

    We're gonna watch a near record Sockeye run swim by and overescape our rivers again this year because one river's King run is weak and probably late and we can't count them.

    Hooray!!!

    The terminal fishery isn't open because the Kenai/Salamatof beaches were opened on the wrong day, it was opened because the Kasilof beaches WEREN'T opened on the right day. They sat on shore this weekend and watched 50,000 Kasilof-bound Sockeye swim by all in the name of saving Kenai Kings that they harvested very few of in past openers. ADFG regional staff specifically told them they were doing this to let Kings get in the Kenai so more fishing time would be available this week, only to get this terminal garbage.

    I suppose your 'water under the bridge' attitude towards Kasilof Sockeye overescapement due to management mistakes is much the same as your attitude will be for overescapement in the Kenai. We all know that's highly probably given the run size and current management mess. If this year's King run does behave like last years, by the time we've exceeded Sockeye goals, King passage will likely be higher, and ESSN fishing will be out of the question.

    Oh, wait, I'm conversing with people who've never seen an escapement number too high to like.

  10. #10

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    Again,

    How does this fishery help anyone???

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    Again,

    How does this fishery help anyone???
    The creation of the terminal fishery was partly my fault. We made a mistake in 1985 and allowed 500,000 fish up the Kasilof. So as a safety valve the terminal fishery was created. It was not intended to be a substitute fishery and in fact the first regulation said that it was not to replace traditional fisheries. It was not to be used in most years. Unfortunately, over time this portion of the regulation has been lost in translation.

    One factor that people should understand is that one has to fish the terminal fishery three days to equal one day of fishing the beaches. That is because the set net fishery takes days of fish off the beach while the terminal area is limited in area and scope. So if one wants to slow sockeye it is better to fish the set net fishery. It also does not target Kasilof chinook which obviously are being given up along with the sockeye goal for Kasilof. This all in favor of Kenai chinook or the perception of helping Kenai chinook.

    So the bottom line for me is that taking 400,000 sockeye for 300 chinook like the Monday period did was a good trade off in a mixed stock fishery. If ADF&G would have fished today or Wed would have been similar in my opinion. Now without fishing ADF&G has two options - go well over the Kenai sockeye goal or fish harder when sockeye numbers are lower - in both cases a poor choice. The decision today was a bad one for a variety of reasons.

    The rationale used today was that the in-river return would be around 18,000 chinook using the average run timing of the last three years. The sport harvest will a full fishery would be about 1500 and so the final escapement would be around 16,500. If the whole ESSN fishery fished full out to the end of the season they would take another 1500 fish. That would take the goal down to 15,000 but within the MSY range. ADF&G staff said that uncertainty in the data does not allow them to fish an extra period. That is a mistake. First the 15,000 goal has 2,000 fish above the MSY lower point from their own report and they stated they recommended 15,000 as a safety margin.

    In my opinion ADF&G made a huge error today. They needed to harvest Kenai sockeye on the beach when they are in high numbers. Now they are doomed if the run is on forecast in my opinion. It may be that Kenai sockeye will fail on the backside and the goals will be met. However, the probability of that is fairly low.

    You cannot manage this fishery from Juneau and this season and last season is showing this clearly.

  12. #12
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    Shut it all down! Shut the whole thing down, put everything away! Dipnets, poles, setnets, boats, guides, sport, commrrcial,...everyone pull out,... Its just not worth it. Its all over

  13. #13

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    It comes down to weighting the risks. Risk of going over the sockeye goals vs. risk of going under the king goals. Right now we are dancing on the edge of failing to meet the kenai king goal and under current fisheries the only way it will be met is if the run timing continues to be late like it has been more often than not in the last few years. Interesting how some are arguing it's not OK to exceed sockeye for a year but is OK to short kings for a year. ADFG typically endeavors to prioritize meeting minimums (although the northern guys might quibble with this). In a year like this one, it's not practically possible to meet all goals. You have to pick your poison.

    Watching all the sockeye swim by is a bitter pill indeed for the set net guys. At the same time it's worth remembering where we were last year with a total shut down. The set net fishery is still fishing regular periods and had a **** good one Monday. ADFG is practically in a no win situation in a year like this. Hopefully the fish cooperate and folks can continue to get some fishing in and enough kings escape to make sure we aren't sitting in a king hole for the next decade.

    Nobody likes that kasilof special harvest area, even apparently most of the people that fish it. (Now i know it's Nerka's fault.) The management plan allows it because there are no kasilof king goals. They are gonna take the beating.

    And by the way if it's really about avoiding sockeye overescapement and not just maximizing set net revenue, where are the EO's for the decoupled drift corridor and more liberal pu and sockeye sport fisheries? There are other options for controlling sockeye escapement that are not being employed.

  14. #14

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    None of those options right now would be as effective as the setnet fishery. For the record, we likely exceeded biological (BEG/SEG) Sockeye goals in the Kenai and Kasilof last year as well. And in the Kenai the year before that. This is not an isolated incident. Oh, that's right, it's what KRSA has been campaigning for. What better way to shut the setnets down than to kill future Sockeye runs?

    I love how everyone keeps using 2012, the year of the worst management mistakes in UCI history, as the benchmark. Stop telling me to be thankful it's not 2012 or you're going to make me puke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bfish View Post
    It comes down to weighting the risks. Risk of going over the sockeye goals vs. risk of going under the king goals. Right now we are dancing on the edge of failing to meet the kenai king goal and under current fisheries the only way it will be met is if the run timing continues to be late like it has been more often than not in the last few years. Interesting how some are arguing it's not OK to exceed sockeye for a year but is OK to short kings for a year. ADFG typically endeavors to prioritize meeting minimums (although the northern guys might quibble with this). In a year like this one, it's not practically possible to meet all goals. You have to pick your poison.

    Watching all the sockeye swim by is a bitter pill indeed for the set net guys. At the same time it's worth remembering where we were last year with a total shut down. The set net fishery is still fishing regular periods and had a **** good one Monday. ADFG is practically in a no win situation in a year like this. Hopefully the fish cooperate and folks can continue to get some fishing in and enough kings escape to make sure we aren't sitting in a king hole for the next decade.

    Nobody likes that kasilof special harvest area, even apparently most of the people that fish it. (Now i know it's Nerka's fault.) The management plan allows it because there are no kasilof king goals. They are gonna take the beating.

    And by the way if it's really about avoiding sockeye overescapement and not just maximizing set net revenue, where are the EO's for the decoupled drift corridor and more liberal pu and sockeye sport fisheries? There are other options for controlling sockeye escapement that are not being employed.
    Bfish, the Kenai sockeye goals have been exceeded for a number of years. In contrast the chinook goals have been reached in most years. So I think that trade-off has been made in favor of chinook for years.

    Relative to the goals we know they are yield goals so if the MSY goal for chinook is met and the sockeye goal is exceeded the question is what are the trade-offs in potential future yields. The various escapement goal reports define this well. This is not about conservation of either stock and I think you would agree it is all about future yields.

    Next, I was not the management biologist in 1985 so I was only partially to blame by not objecting and not realizing that the Kasilof fish had moved north above one of our management lines.

    Again, it is to be used only in rare situations and this is not one of them in my opinion. I know we probably disagree on the size of this run and we will never know as the Didson is a seriously flawed system at the lower river site - even ADF&G knows this since they are moving it. There is no indication they are over counting at this point.

    Finally, saying they had a good day and should be happy is very insulting to the commercial industry. The industry is more than a day of fishing. That was a low blow to the industry and those that fish. It is like saying to you - we are not going to pay you on Friday because your Christmas bonus was good last year. Not cool.

    There are options to fish sockeye and I would agree with you that the drift fleet should have been used in the expanded corridor during the window periods. That would have helped but again political considerations got in the way. Northern District political pressure has everyone thinking that any drift fishing is bad. Increasing the personal use limits does nothing since most people do not take their limit. The average household takes 18 fish which meets their needs even though the limit for a household is greater than 25. The sport fishery is similar. You can increase the bag limit but most people on the Kenai do not even catch one fish let alone 6/day. So raising it to 12 has little impact.

    Bottom line - kill 200,000 to 400,000 sockeye when they are on the beach for 300 chinook harvested.

    Just for the record, we may be in the mess because of over-escapement of chinook in the parent years. Even ADF&G notes that in the escapement goal report - not the only cause but certainly a contributor.

  16. #16

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    Why do all of these threads read like a bunch of spoiled children, throwing a tantrum because they feel someone got more than them. Yes, for sure it is carefully hidden in illusions of "DEEPELY" caring for the resource. Seems to me if you'all have such a DEEP love and respect for ALL fish.......that you would NEVER ever catch one, or eat one.

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    we are not in this mess because of overescapement of chinooks dude, we are in this mess becau se of guys like you with zero knowledge of fishing conservation running our rivers. Think about what your saying, it is ridiculous!

  18. #18
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    Thumbs up Money surging with the sockeye fishery . . .

    Anyone who entertains the slightest doubt about the overwhelming importance of the sockeye fishery to our area's economy needs to be in Soldotna right now . . it is a zoo.


    Flippers, gill-netters, dip-netters, tourists-coming-out-our-ears, and half the state's population to boot . . add in all the support industry . . packers, transport, ice, processors, Trustworthy, Sportsman's Warehouse, FedEx, etc., etc., etc. . . to boot and one is staggered by the amount of money flowing in this town right now.


    The sockeye fishery in all its components dwarfs the chinook fishery by untold orders of magnitude. People were buying fishing licenses and rods at 6 AM this morning . . standing in line at Custom Seafoods, waiting for them to open at 9 AM. Fred's parking lot looks like a trailer park what with all the RVs.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Finally, saying they had a good day and should be happy is very insulting to the commercial industry. The industry is more than a day of fishing. That was a low blow to the industry and those that fish. It is like saying to you - we are not going to pay you on Friday because your Christmas bonus was good last year. Not cool.
    What, I should have suggested that they shouldn't be happy with catching a lot of fish? Nerka I meant no such condescension and am sorry if it might have been read that way. I am happy the commercial guys hammered the sockeye on Monday. I hope they do so again on Thursday. I hope the kings are late and blow the doors off the escapement goals and everybody gets to catch all the fish they need. Those that know me, know that I am first and foremost about fishers harvesting fish.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bfish View Post
    What, I should have suggested that they shouldn't be happy with catching a lot of fish? Nerka I meant no such condescension and am sorry if it might have been read that way. I am happy the commercial guys hammered the sockeye on Monday. I hope they do so again on Thursday. I hope the kings are late and blow the doors off the escapement goals and everybody gets to catch all the fish they need. Those that know me, know that I am first and foremost about fishers harvesting fish.
    Bfish, don't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining.

    You, me, and everyone else with half a brain knows that if the kings are late and blow the doors off the escapement, it will be after the main push of Sockeye passes. They'll already be in the overcrowded spawning grounds. Projections are that the Kenai King goal will be met, and both Sockeye goals will be exceeded. 250,000 sockeye escaped the Kenai yesterday. The sockeye are here. NOW IS THE TIME TO MAXIMIZE SOCKEYE HARVEST!!! Sockeye to King ratios don't get any better than they will be for the next few days. After that, they go up again.

    You act like you care, but your client "dedicated to the sustainability"of the Kenai is pushing as hard as ever for regular periods only for the ESSN's and liberalization of the Drifters. Unfortunately, the politically minded ADFG divisional staff is more worried about being in good standing with uncle Bob than they are achieving escapement goals.

    Meanwhile, we're killing every King in sight of the Kasilof river mouth in order to take a very minute fraction of the Sockeye that are crowding the East Side beaches. How's dipnetting down there today?

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