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Thread: I spoke too soon, the pigs are back at Kasilof...

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default I spoke too soon, the pigs are back at Kasilof...

    ...the dumpsters are overflowing like in the past.
    Now, if you had just gotten a bunch of free fish, and you saw that the dumpsters were too full to take your trash, mightn't you just elect to carry your bag of trash home with you, or maybe dump it off at the well-marked Kasilof refuse center, or even put in one of Freddy's or Safeway's trash cans? But no, it's, "Let's take the fish and leave our trash behind.".
    Actually, it's the people who do such a thing that are trash. Burns me up! So little respect for this beautiful place.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    ...the dumpsters are overflowing like in the past.
    Now, if you had just gotten a bunch of free fish, and you saw that the dumpsters were too full to take your trash, mightn't you just elect to carry your bag of trash home with you, or maybe dump it off at the well-marked Kasilof refuse center, or even put in one of Freddy's or Safeway's trash cans? But no, it's, "Let's take the fish and leave our trash behind.".
    Actually, it's the people who do such a thing that are trash. Burns me up! So little respect for this beautiful place.
    Wait for it; there will be someone come along soon enough to claim it's somebody else's fault.... There aren't enough dumpsters; they're not emptied often enough, etc. The reality is that LOTS of people are greedy, lazy, remorseless pigs. Sad but true.
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    The majority of people have never in their life practiced any style of "pack out what you pack in" while visiting our natural resources. This report indicates that many people cannot do it even when they have a big American car to haul their stuff out in. Bad them.

    But also that dumpster is supposed to be emptied and it was put there to be filled - when that happened it should have been emptied. In years past they have been pretty darn good about emptying both the dumpsters and the portapotties, or at least that I've seen.

    Hey, i, we posted at the same time. Did my post (above) fulfill your prediction? I'll not edit it now, either way. My point is that while the OP is right, there is positive constructive step (emptying the dumpsters) that could and should be done also.

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    Member powderhound's Avatar
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    people who leave the trash are trash.
    Yes I couldnt agree more, it is sad but seems to be the norm of the " New Alaska Mentality ".
    It is bad to see that but what really makes me sick is when I work my butt off getting way into the backcountry, hiking around without a person within miles and I stumble onto someones trash.
    That really sinks in on me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by powderhound View Post
    ...without a person within miles and I stumble onto someones trash. That really sinks in on me!
    Chaps my hide too. When I get kids afield I keep that rule real simple - 3 words - We Don't Litter. Second step is teaching bringing some of it back. I too wonder when doing that.... I'm hauling his tin cans/glass out and he walked out that much lighter.... and frankly you feel like a bit of a chump but you do it anyway because its right and its what the kids need to see afield. And it is a positive step forward that helps alleviate some of the current symptoms and eventually help to correct the original problem (after the better-learnt kids grown enough to have expeditions of their own).

    Litter is a real hot button for me; there is no reason for virtually all of it except for the actions of some unthinking or uncaring, thoughtless, lazy people. And it is never a welcome sight. And there is almost never a good reason why it happened. Sorry, I warned ya. Shutting up now.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Here we go again. Dipnetters trashing the beaches again.
    I also practice "PACK IT IN PACK IT OUT" and that is what I teach others including their kids.
    I understand a dumpster placed somewhere should be emptied.
    I used to work for the MN DNR and we found if there was a trash can/barrel left at a public boat ramp it got full every weekend and trash was left all around it blowing away in the wind. There was way less trash left behind when no trash can/barrel were there to begin with.
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    I can see the day that Kasilof will no longer be a free dipnet site if this keeps up. I was told a few years ago that the reason Kenai charges is to somewhat alleviate the cost of the mess the pigs leave. That sure made their charge more palatable to me as even though some may agree that we don't get our monies worth in clean-up and services there, they definitely do have a high cost of doing what they do to even keep it as clean as they do. I then proposed on this forum that maybe we take it upon ourselves to get together and put up a kiosk at Kasilof with a sign that requested people pick-up after themselves, Haul it in, Haul it out, and a dispenser for free trash bags. Maybe even encourage parents to have their kids do a little clean-up for some sort of a reward. Yes, this would have to be on their own nickel, but maybe that would slowly change the attitudes of people, and maybe it would shame a few pigs when they see kids obviously cleaning up trash that is not their own to not leave theirs. I also suggested maybe some of us wear a safety vest with a drawing of a pig taking a dump surrounded by a large circle with a diagonal band across it. I actually did this and then things improved. I am sure my one time of doing a little extra clean-up wearing that very visible vest didn't have anything to do with it and was just coincidence, but I still carry the vest and a long stick with a nail in the end of it for spearing trash as well as latex gloves and extra trash bags. Just walking around for a few minutes picking up trash can shame some without personal confrontation as that will cause more trouble than good. Should Kasilof become a pay beach at some point, maybe at the booth where you will have to pay, assuming it is manned, kids, or people, could turn in a bag of trash for a voucher for one free, or discounted, entry next time they come down. That could also work at Kenai, hint, hint. Another alternative for vouchers, might be a drawing at the end of the season for some prize. Kasilof just doesn't have that much in the way of commerce to gain from their dipnet areas, and if we don't keep on top of this problem, why would they want us there in the first place? There are enough that would rather we that don't live there go elsewhere as it is, so why urinate them off any further? Treat their backyard the same as you would want them to treat yours and we can all get along. BTW, I live near Fish Creek and they trash our area too and it vexes me greatly. Yes, these are not the words I would normally use, but I am trying to be diplomatic, which isn't easy for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Wait for it; there will be someone come along soon enough to claim it's somebody else's fault.... There aren't enough dumpsters; they're not emptied often enough, etc.......
    Excuse me, but can you tell us why there are not more dumpsters or why they aren't emptied often enough?

    I managed refuse service for a locality here in Alaska for a while. It didn't take a complicated mathematical formula to know that service had to be significantly increased during Christmas season, and there wasn't a forum of know-it-alls that I was familiar with who couldn't wait to condemn somebody for all the garbage around the dumpsters which our employees had to put into the dumpster after the first dump so it could be dumped again.

    It's garbage collection. Is Kenai trying to do it like the New York City garbage collection unions?

    ......The reality is that LOTS of people are greedy, lazy, remorseless pigs. Sad but true.
    No kidding? So how do you deal with that? Cry? Or react with effective measures?

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    While there should be adequate services (both in number of dumpsters and frequency of emptying said dumpsters), it's not unreasonable to expect people to take their trash with them if the dumpsters are full. When we dipped the Kasilof two weeks ago, our minimal amount of trash went into a bag and into the bed of my truck. Honestly, I didn't even look for a dumpster - I was on a beach, so I took care of it myself to include a bit of other trash that my son and I picked up on our way out.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brain View Post
    Excuse me, but can you tell us why there are not more dumpsters or why they aren't emptied often enough?
    Why should I or anyone else need to answer such a question? Why should it be our responsibility to remove the trash left by pigs? Why should there be dumpsters there in the first place? kasilofchrisn nailed it in post #6; dumpsters don't solve the problem, they just shift the burden onto others.

    Seems to me the question you should be asking, Brain, is: Why don't people act in a responsible manner and take their trash home with them?

    To my way of thinking, people who act in the manner described by Brian M are the solution; people who do not are the problem; and asking why there aren't more dumpsters, or why the dumpsters aren't emptied more often amounts to red herring obfuscation and an attempt to pass the problem off on someone else.
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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brain View Post
    Excuse me, but can you tell us why there are not more dumpsters or why they aren't emptied often enough?
    First off this thread is about the Kasilof river and there is no municipality of Kasilof.
    Second how much does one pay for dipnetting at the kasilof beach? Answer=$0.00
    Camping fee at the Kasilof beach? Answer=$0.00
    How much does it cost to get a dipnet harvest card? Answer=$0.00 although a resident fishing license is required.
    How much does it cost to place and service dumpsters for several thousand people for 41 days? You are the refuse expert you tell us!
    If you take all the money these dippers pay for Kasilof beach access,Kasilof beach camping, and their dipnet harvest card and put it towards dumpsters and porta johns given your vast experience in the matter how many dumpsters and porta johns can you pay for with all that money? How far does $0.00 go in the refuse world nowadays?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    First off this thread is about the Kasilof river and there is no municipality of Kasilof.
    Second how much does one pay for dipnetting at the kasilof beach? Answer=$0.00
    Camping fee at the Kasilof beach? Answer=$0.00
    How much does it cost to get a dipnet harvest card? Answer=$0.00 although a resident fishing license is required.
    How much does it cost to place and service dumpsters for several thousand people for 41 days? You are the refuse expert you tell us!
    If you take all the money these dippers pay for Kasilof beach access,Kasilof beach camping, and their dipnet harvest card and put it towards dumpsters and porta johns given your vast experience in the matter how many dumpsters and porta johns can you pay for with all that money? How far does $0.00 go in the refuse world nowadays?
    Whoever took it upon themselves to place the dumpster there should empty it. They put it there for a reason....to collect trash. They knew good and well it would fill up, they need to finish the job. If they dont plan on emptying it when it gets full, they are as much a part of the problem as the slobs leaving trash on the beach...and in the parking lots....and along the roads....and...................

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    Good grief, how can so many miss the point? I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular with that statement either. We pay nothing at Kasilof, but that will change if we all don't police ourselves better. Maybe there isn't any particular entity at the moment that is in charge, but when it get's bad enough either there will be, or it will be closed. Most of us do a great job of not littering and many do a little extra too, but, "Pigs is Pigs" and that is all there is to it. It isn't going to do much good to confront the real pigs, unless you are a real deputy of some sort and have the authority to back it up, or want to get into a confrontation you might come out second best on, all you do with confrontation is waste your time and annoy the pig. Maybe a little non aggressive shaming might get the point across to those that are still in the piglet stage, and maybe we can teach our own some life lessons here by our example and going the extra mile as sure as hell the pigs won't. Maybe the reward system, or reminders could help. It is obvious just discussing it on the forum hasn't done the job, the pigs are most likely not on the forum anyway, and I regret that discussing it never will as, "pigs is pigs". In a few cases some folks just may not realize what their little refuse can add up to when there are a lot that feel that way. I used to smoke and I would always make sure my cigarette butts were out, but just discard them along the trail never even thinking about it until one day the wife of the instructor in a class I was taking came up to me very politely and broached the subject and pointed out how easy it was to just carry a plastic baggie in my pocket and put the butts and filters in there. So simple, I never thought of it and no problem at all. Just one example where polite intervention sometimes helps, but again, the hard core pig is still a pig and they probably won't change. Surely the tide isn't taking care of everything. Maybe more signage and that non aggressive obvious volunteer in plain sight could possibly get the point across to those that just don't think, but sitting at our computers and responding like little boys all holding their noses and point their fingers at each other isn't helping. As to the "organic refuse", that is a whole different matter. Again, I don't know who is footing the bill for those Porta-Potties, but THANK YOU. However, it is disgusting to walk into one and fine a miniature sculpture of Mt. Denali just waiting to greet you. If someone could find out who is paying for the dumpsters and Rent-A-Cans, maybe we can start there working as a group to improve the service. Surely if they are making good money doing this, censure is called for, but if they are barely scraping by, maybe we need to do something as a group of responsible users to get the quality of service we need. In the meantime, if you see some fat, old, ugly codger with an orange vest on with a sign on the back in the shape of a circle with a diagonal running through it and the poorly drawn image of a pig taking a dump -- say Hi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Why should I or anyone else need to answer such a question? ......
    In order to solve the problem as efficiently as possible. You were correct in an earlier post:

    The reality is that LOTS of people are greedy, lazy, remorseless pigs. Sad but true.


    You know that, I know that, the Kenai Peninsula Borough knows that, the State of Alaska knows that, and whoever put the dumpsters there knows that. That is why the dumpsters are there. Even with the dumpsters there, some people will leave garbage in the vicinity. Why? Because "lots of people are greedy, lazy, remorseless pigs. Sad but true."

    Now, if I interrupted your tantrum, I apologize, but I was only trying to point out that the best solution possible was at hand: a dumpster/dumpsters are being provided, but they're just full. You're 95% there. All that needs to be done is empty the things at an efficient time.

    Seems pretty elementary to me.

    Now that your question has been answered, please go forward, either with ranting, recanting, or whatever................

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    We are putting a dipnetting section together for the site, so I went down to 20 Mile a few weeks ago to film and photograph the hooligan run. Got some great pics and video, but I was shocked at the quantity of trash I saw lying about. I ended up driving to Girdwood for trash bags and came back. Spent a couple of hours picking up trash and filled the back of my truck. Dirty diapers, bottles, cans, candy wrappers, other bags of trash, you name it, it was there. One guy even had the audacity to approach me with a double handful of his own trash. At least he put it in my bag, I guess.

    I really disagree with the idea that there will be less trash if there is no dumpster or other receptacle. The only ways there will be less trash is if people take responsibility for bringing their own stuff home, or if there are less people. Many are simply slobs who do not care.

    When the kids were small, I would bring a trash bag along on our trips to the Russian River. We ended our fishing trips by picking up other people's trash. The only ones who seemed to notice that were the ones who weren't leaving trash behind. The other slobs who trashed the place never said anything, and would toss stuff even while we were there. I confronted a few of them, but you know how it is. After we're gone, they're still there trashing the place.

    Stiffer penalties. That will get their attention. Reminds me of a situation I saw at the mouth of Willow Creek one year. The kings were in (remember those days?), and everyone was having a great time. But there was this one jerk who was intentionally snagging. He finally landed a king, snagged in the back. He bonked it, loaded up his gear and was preparing to leave, when another fisherman confronted him, "Hey, you can't keep a snagged fish! What are you thinking?" The belligerent jerk pushed back with a smart remark, "Well, why don't you just write me a ticket!" The angler stopped a minute, pondering the question. He set his rod down and quietly said, "Ummm... okay." and reached into his back pocket for his ticket book. He was an off-duty State Trooper. The whole place erupted with cheers as the snagger was soaked with a huge fine and confiscation of his gear.

    I hate it that we're stuck with people like this. But the only practical things we can do is to pick up after them and confront the ones we catch in the act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    .....Reminds me of a situation I saw at the mouth of Willow Creek one year. The kings were in (remember those days?), and everyone was having a great time. But there was this one jerk who was intentionally snagging. He finally landed a king, snagged in the back. He bonked it, loaded up his gear and was preparing to leave, when another fisherman confronted him, "Hey, you can't keep a snagged fish! What are you thinking?" The belligerent jerk pushed back with a smart remark, "Well, why don't you just write me a ticket!" The angler stopped a minute, pondering the question. He set his rod down and quietly said, "Ummm... okay." and reached into his back pocket for his ticket book. He was an off-duty State Trooper. The whole place erupted with cheers as the snagger was soaked with a huge fine and confiscation of his gear......
    I wish I had been there to enjoy that moment......

    I remember an Alaska that didn't have refuse service even in the towns. You took the garbage to the landfill yourself or were surrounded by it. That was why there were homes all over each community with garbage all around the place. Those homes still exist, even in Anchorage.

    I'll even go as far as to opine that whoever provided the dumpsters isn't going to empty them until the season is over out of cost efficiency. As a refuse service, we did the same thing for special events, epecially in remote locations: provide the dumpsters you think will cover the job, then go for them when the event is over. If there is garbage all around you clam it up with a loader that had a clam-bucket up front, and re-dump the dumpsters in the truck. The mere presence of the overfull dumpsters will provide a place for many to dump their garbage on the ground out of guilt. Some will go to the wind, gulls, dogs, etc, but most will eventually make it's way to the landfill. Not my idea of efficiency, but it beats no dumpster at all, and it beats the absolutely foolish idea that everybody is going to be responsible enough to take their dirty diapers home with them. Ain't gonna' happen, regardless of how right or desirable it is.

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    Ok boys and girls, we have been lucky for a year or so compared to the pigs trashing OUR dipnet areas, but now it seems the swine herd is back and we are once again justifiably upset -- as we should be. The real question is what are we going to do about it? The pleading and the ranting are not doing any good and we all know that some people are not going to change as, ďPigs is PigsĒ.
    So, where do we go from here? What I would ask of you is this. On the forum and while with friends see if we can come up with some suggestions of how we can make the situation better and not just talk, or write about them, IMPLIMENT them. Regarding the pigs just leaving crap on the beach, that is going to take some effort on our parts as the pigs arenít going to do it. Maybe we can educate the piglets and those that just donít get it, but ďPigs is PigsĒ, and they wonít change. You could challenge them one on one when you see them, but they most likely already know that what they are doing isnít right and they donít give a big fuzzy rats ass. You could either have them blow you off, or get into a physical confrontation, or yelling match, but again, that is just like teaching a pig to sing, all you do is waste your time and annoy the pig.
    So, what can we do? Maybe enlist someone local who knows the area, the problem, and the folks to contact, and form a group to look into viable ways to make things better. Most of us donít live down there, so what we can do on our own is limited. I have seen the outhouse service crews down there and they donít seem to be the same ones that take care of the dumpsters, but even if they are, they are probably only giving the service that they are paid for and unless we want to pay more in some form such as a fee or taxes from some entity such as state, borough, or something else, they arenít going to do either the outhouses or the dumpsters for free. Again, the need for local intervention is needed, strongly backed by those of us that donít live down there to contribute more than just lip service, and yes, this very well may mean a fee or a tax, but it isnít going to get done for free, and that you can depend on.
    So, lets hear from you on what we CAN do that will make a difference. Some things I have read are listed below and hopefully will appear in a form that isnít all run together. My writing isnít that good, but when I canít even separate into paragraphs, things do get run together are harder to read, so I am trying to do this one in another program on my computer and Cut and Paste it to the forum, but it may not work.
    Volunteers with identifiable vests on hopefully getting people to notice and join in, or at least not leave so much trash.
    A reward system such as a drawing or in places where there is a fee, a free pass for trash turned in.
    Confronting Pigs directly and shaming them.
    A kiosk with better signage and free trash bags.
    More signage around the area asking to keep the area clean or a warning of a fine if caught.
    Petitioning either state, or borough to make it a fee area and have better clean-up provided.
    Find out who actually does the outhouse and dumpster maintenance and discussing the problem with them.
    Petitioning the state or borough for some form of tax on sales of equipment or other that produces a tax base so that better clean up of dumpsters and outhouses is provided.
    Opening other areas to dip netting.
    Ticketing offenders for littering.
    Soliciting for some group local to the area to work with us to find a solution that works for all of us, but keep in mind that we that live elsewhere are going to have to work with them in some equitable fashion so that locals will work with us for all of our benefit.
    End of season organized clean-up gatherings where we would do the clean-up, but that wonít help the outhouse situation, and this has been done in the past.
    In season organized clean-up gatherings, maybe on Mondays, to clean-up the area. Problem here is that most of us don't live close enough to help.
    Picking some individual or organization to send donations to as a way to help defray the cost of extra dumpster and outhouse maintenance.
    I donít think all these solutions will miraculously cure the problem, some will help and some in conjunction with others may have promise, but there is not going to be a miracle cure from any one individual or even group, but if we want the situation to get better, we need to take some sort of action as if we donít someone else eventually will and we may not like their solution one bit.
    So, lets hear from you and start to do more than just discuss it.

  18. #18
    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    There is a group founded and run by local high school kids who do wear t-shirts bearing their name ROC the Kenai and clean up the Kenai beach.
    I am not sure if they do the Kasilof though.
    Sinage will help some I think. Reminding them to pack it out and those reminding them of the fine.
    I think more littering tickets written by the troopers would help. When the rumor spreads that troopers are out in force writing littering tickets people will shape up for awhile anyway.
    It will get to the point where it will get closed down if people do not do more to clean up afterthemselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    ...the dumpsters are overflowing like in the past.........
    Does anybody know who is providing these dumpsters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brain View Post
    Does anybody know who is providing these dumpsters?
    Call the Borough and ask them; I bet its them. The land is owned by the feds; I doubt the feds pay for dumpster/johns.

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