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Thread: Head of Household defined

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    Default Head of Household defined

    I'm sure this has been answered before, but I couldn't find the thread. Could somebody please define "head of household" for me? Specifically, if there are three unrelated people living in an apartment, all on one lease, can we each get a separate permit as head of household and 25 fish or can we only get one permit and 45 (25 + 10 +10) fish? Just to throw a curve, if one person in the apartment is not a resident yet, can he still be used for as an extra 10?

    I have yet to find an answer to these. Everybody speculates, but nobody can point to a specific reg or rule to back it up. Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator_McClusky View Post
    I'm sure this has been answered before, but I couldn't find the thread. Could somebody please define "head of household" for me? Specifically, if there are three unrelated people living in an apartment, all on one lease, can we each get a separate permit as head of household and 25 fish or can we only get one permit and 45 (25 + 10 +10) fish? Just to throw a curve, if one person in the apartment is not a resident yet, can he still be used for as an extra 10?

    I have yet to find an answer to these. Everybody speculates, but nobody can point to a specific reg or rule to back it up. Thanks in advance.
    My suggestion would be to contage ADF&G directly. You will likely get some answers here, but do you really want to trust someone you don't know when it comes to regulations? ADF&G should be able to answer your question definitively in about 5 minutes or less.

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    Member Ryan J's Avatar
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    Well, with taxes as the context, it involves relation by blood, marriage, or adoption. It has nothing to do with a physical house. But, what he ^^^^^ said is probably best.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Bag limits

    The total yearly harvest out of all the Upper Cook Inlet personal use salmon fisheries (Kenai, Kasilof, and Fish Creek) is 25 salmon and 10 flounder for the permit holder and 10 salmon for each additional household member. The limit is combined for all four fisheries - Kenai dipnetting, Kasilof dipnetting, Kasilof set gillnetting, and Fish Creek dipnetting. King salmon may not be kept in the Fish Creek dipnet fishery.
    These are annual household limits, not a daily limit, or a limit per fishery.

    Maybe this will help a little. I would be sure and call ADF&G to keep your arse out of trouble.
    I would guess your non resident friend would NOT count. Thats just my thoughts though.
    One last thing to consider is what you need and will use. If you need less than your full limit then only harvest what you will use.
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    You have to be a resident of at least one year to dip net, so that's minus one (or 25 fish) for your group to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FL2AK-Old Town View Post
    You have to be a resident of at least one year to dip net, so that's minus one (or 25 fish) for your group to begin with.
    Bingo! The non-Alaska resident, the one not here for a year +, is not allowed to dipnet (or help clean/fillet dipnetted fish for that matter).

    The other 2 of you, I assume both AK residents for a year+, should be each allowed your 25 salmon as "head of household." The way I interpret "HoH" which isn't clearly defined in the ADF&G regs, is that I may take my 25 salmon as head of household, plus 10 extra for my wife, and 10 extra for each child I have. Thus, if I have a wife and 3 kids that equals 15+10+10+10+10. If you're single, you get 25 salmon and 10 flounder.

    DON'T FORGET YOUR DIPNET PERMIT, AND MAKE SURE YOU CLIP TAILS AND FILL OUT YOUR CARD ON SITE.

    Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuel E Fishin Sea View Post
    Bingo! The non-Alaska resident, the one not here for a year +, is not allowed to dipnet (or help clean/fillet dipnetted fish for that matter).
    Could you expand on the clean/fillet part, Fuel E? Harvesting, fish or game, requires a license. Helping process, fish or game, does not.
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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Could you expand on the clean/fillet part, Fuel E? Harvesting, fish or game, requires a license. Helping process, fish or game, does not.
    Per the regulations book:
    Non residents may not participate in personal use fisheries.
    For example nonresidents may not handle any of the gear or operate a boat that is being used for personal use fishing,or have in their possesion fish harvested in a personal use fishery.

    Page 13 of the southcentral regs book.
    Sounds clear enough to me if they cannot posses the fish I don't suppose they should be cleaning them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    Sounds clear enough to me if they cannot posses the fish I don't suppose they should be cleaning them.
    Would eating them be considered, "possession"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Would eating them be considered, "possession"?
    Uh... only for a day or so.... ;-)

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    Okay, so here is an interesting scenario I'm sure no one here has thought of yet. I have a wife and three kids, plus my mom/mother-in-law/my kid's grandma lives on our property. She is retired, and we help take care of her. I built her house about five years ago. She technically she does not live in our "household", but we share practically everything with her. Moose meat, salmon, vegetables from our garden etc. As far as I know, I can't proxy for her. But I figure at least ten of our fish go to her every year anyways, so do I include her in our household bag limit or not?

    What would you do? I don't really want to contact F & G, because from my experience, if you ask someone at F & G, you might get different 20 different opinions from 20 different F & G representatives.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhack Jack View Post
    Okay, so here is an interesting scenario I'm sure no one here has thought of yet. I have a wife and three kids, plus my mom/mother-in-law/my kid's grandma lives on our property. She is retired, and we help take care of her. I built her house about five years ago. She technically she does not live in our "household", but we share practically everything with her. Moose meat, salmon, vegetables from our garden etc. As far as I know, I can't proxy for her. But I figure at least ten of our fish go to her every year anyways, so do I include her in our household bag limit or not?

    What would you do? I don't really want to contact F & G, because from my experience, if you ask someone at F & G, you might get different 20 different opinions from 20 different F & G representatives.
    How many fish does she need? If she only needs ~10 fish then it is much simpler to put on your permit.
    If she actually needs more fish then consider being her proxy.
    Just because you could be her proxy and get away with harvesting the extra 15 fish doesn't mean you have to and if she doesn't actually eat more than 10 salmon per year why bother?
    10 Kenai reds is easily 40+ meals for a single person. That is quite a bit of fish.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

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    Call the Wildlife Troopers. They are the ones that will be enforcing the regs and if you look at the trooper dispatches, they have been pretty active. Problem with Fish and Game is you might get to talk to a summer intern that will just give you a canned answer.
    Non residents do not count in anyway for personal use limits. He/she cannot and should not be part of the equation. I doubt seriously if helping clean fish counts as possession but then again, that's why you call the troopers.

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    Im pretty sure once I heard only resident can clean its considered part of fishing.....outsiders can watch u clean as long as they keep their hands to their side .....ask a trooper

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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    How many fish does she need? If she only needs ~10 fish then it is much simpler to put on your permit.
    If she actually needs more fish then consider being her proxy.
    Just because you could be her proxy and get away with harvesting the extra 15 fish doesn't mean you have to and if she doesn't actually eat more than 10 salmon per year why bother?
    10 Kenai reds is easily 40+ meals for a single person. That is quite a bit of fish.
    10 fish is plenty for her. She doesn't eat a whole lot. I am considering her part of my household because she lives on our property and we help take care of her. There is no way she could dip net for herself. I could proxy for her, but like you said, she doesn't need 25 fish. I don't lose any sleep over it, but I always wonder what the fur, fish and feathers would say about it.

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    Funny no one has tried to define household. I'd say by common understanding if the OP and his resident roommate share an address they share a household and are only able to dipnet 35. The REASON this makes sense is because of how F&G can regulate this, addresses. Its the only way based on the data they gather when you get a permit. I suspect if two permits are turned in with the same address your going to get a nasty letter with a ticket.

    In the case of the fella with the mother-in-law house, her house SHOULD have a different address, often a 555A and 555B type number, at least where building permits are required. This is so the paramedics know WHICH house to go to when you call and the tax man knows which person to send bills to. In that case I'd say you have two separate households.

    My 2 cents of course...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhack Jack View Post
    Okay, so here is an interesting scenario I'm sure no one here has thought of yet. I have a wife and three kids, plus my mom/mother-in-law/my kid's grandma lives on our property. She is retired, and we help take care of her. I built her house about five years ago. She technically she does not live in our "household", but we share practically everything with her. Moose meat, salmon, vegetables from our garden etc. As far as I know, I can't proxy for her. But I figure at least ten of our fish go to her every year anyways, so do I include her in our household bag limit or not?

    What would you do? I don't really want to contact F & G, because from my experience, if you ask someone at F & G, you might get different 20 different opinions from 20 different F & G representatives.
    You mention in another post that you think you should be able to proxy fish for her, so I guess I just question why you would not want to get the clarification from ADF&G and/or the wildlife troopers. Either she counts as a separate household and thus needs her own permit and would be illegal to count for your permit or she counts within your household and her getting her own permit would be illegal. Rather than take the risk of getting caught and not only ticketed, but also losing all the fish and possibly losing the privilage of harvesting fish in this way in the future, I would definitely ask the people enforcing the laws to make sure I was doing it right. It doesn't seem like it is an issue either way. If she needs her own permit, then you can just proxy for her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anchskier View Post
    You mention in another post that you think you should be able to proxy fish for her, so I guess I just question why you would not want to get the clarification from ADF&G and/or the wildlife troopers. Either she counts as a separate household and thus needs her own permit and would be illegal to count for your permit or she counts within your household and her getting her own permit would be illegal. Rather than take the risk of getting caught and not only ticketed, but also losing all the fish and possibly losing the privilage of harvesting fish in this way in the future, I would definitely ask the people enforcing the laws to make sure I was doing it right. It doesn't seem like it is an issue either way. If she needs her own permit, then you can just proxy for her.
    I'm glad you said that anchskier. I was thinking that too, but hadn't responded until now. In complete agreement with everything you said, I would say what I think is the same thing, a different way:

    If you believe that person is in "your household" (as you define it, and assuming you can explain why to others) then claim them and I'll bet you'll not get bit by the law. Or if you believe they're not then don't, and I also believe you'll be ticket free.

    Make a well thought out decision why, then if asked do explain. But you won't be asked. And while you're doing what you think is right, no one will second guess your actions, no matter which of those two decisions you make.

    Great job looking into this too, like you did. I wish you the best in sorting out which solution is yours, gator.

    My 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by limon32 View Post
    Funny no one has tried to define household. I'd say by common understanding if the OP and his resident roommate share an address they share a household and are only able to dipnet 35. The REASON this makes sense is because of how F&G can regulate this, addresses. Its the only way based on the data they gather when you get a permit. I suspect if two permits are turned in with the same address your going to get a nasty letter with a ticket.

    In the case of the fella with the mother-in-law house, her house SHOULD have a different address, often a 555A and 555B type number, at least where building permits are required. This is so the paramedics know WHICH house to go to when you call and the tax man knows which person to send bills to. In that case I'd say you have two separate households.

    My 2 cents of course...
    Several of my friends are brothers they have used the same P.O. box for years even though some of them have moved around and do not live together anymore.
    That is the same address they use for drivers license,fishing license etc. in the mailing address portion.
    Totally seperate households as one has a house and the 2 others have apartments.
    Physical address would be different but I can see this causing confusion in some cases.
    I used to use my parents address for years. Working on the slope I wanted to make sure someone was receiving my mail regularly while I am gone.
    Not a problem now that I am married. But again confusing in some ways.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

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    Quote Originally Posted by anchskier View Post
    You mention in another post that you think you should be able to proxy fish for her, so I guess I just question why you would not want to get the clarification from ADF&G and/or the wildlife troopers. Either she counts as a separate household and thus needs her own permit and would be illegal to count for your permit or she counts within your household and her getting her own permit would be illegal. Rather than take the risk of getting caught and not only ticketed, but also losing all the fish and possibly losing the privilage of harvesting fish in this way in the future, I would definitely ask the people enforcing the laws to make sure I was doing it right. It doesn't seem like it is an issue either way. If she needs her own permit, then you can just proxy for her.
    I appreciate your input anchskier. Like others have said, I don't really think it is necessary to proxy for her. Since her needs are not great enough to justify obtaining 25 fish as opposed to an additional 10 for members of the same household. I guess where you and I respectfully disagree is our trust in the expert opinion of the ADF&G. You see, I can think of several instances, when I went in to get clarification on a particular issue related to hunting and/or fishing, and the inconsistency of opinions has led me to conclude that some things with Fish and Game are not always black and white. In this particular case, our mom/mother-in-law/grandma not only lives on our property, but also shares the same physical address and we share paying taxes on our property. She does have her own P.O. Box, but I know for a fact, that if it were not for me, she would not have any salmon to eat at all and she has absolutely no intention at of claiming her own dip net permit as the head of her own household. And I also already know that a portion of our salmon is going to go to her. We as a family share a large percentage of our game meat and salmon etc. with her. Like I said before, I am not losing any sleep over this matter. I was just curious what other people's opinions were. I appreciate your opinions and ideas.

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