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Thread: Watch out for the anti 4-wheelers/trying to deny access

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    Default Watch out for the anti 4-wheelers/trying to deny access

    Cotton Wood Creek recreation area

    I wanted to express another point of view from a hunter who has huntedboth wildlife refuges and public WMAs (Wildlife managed Areas) in the lower 48.I have no ulterior motives I can hunt by either ATV or boat. Be cautious of those that flat out want to band ATVs as they do have a motive and a deliberate intention to try to band wheelers. Their intentions are obvious in that they make up fictional theories based off those that had strayed off the trail so they could park to recreate and will take pictures as proof of misdoings. I have first-hand knowledge, and the basis of my argument, that goes back to 1998, when I first started hunting this area.The trail was always in bad shape, and in fact there were times I could noteven make it the first mile. I refer to the real bad spot as the “elbow” about 1.0 mile to 2.5 of the trail. The elbow ends when the trail starts to run parallel with Rabbit Slough. There is a big cutout on the right of the elbow caused from the “TIDE” not ATVs for those with some common sense and know the power of water. If we have a tide of approximately 31 feet or better it comes over the top and rushes in the marsh when the outgoing tide goes out and it finds the path of least resistance and also takes soil with it each time. The attack that wheelers caused this is an intellectually vacant argument.

    I have had the pleasure of bringing up a childhood friend who is currently a Ducks Unlimited biologist for the state of Montana, to hunt ducks in Alaska. He was impressed with the marsh andits abundance of Sedge grass and the ability to provide nesting areas. He said the condition of the marsh was great considering all is based on mother natureand that there has been no projects set aside for this area. He also mentioned that watersheds are extremely resilient to recover. The trail didn’t even come up other than it’s another access point. All lands that DU rebuild/restore must have access, it’s a critical element due to the funding from private and businesses donors that endorse DUs work. Alaska as well as in most of the U.S., is acultural reason rooted in the North American Model of wildlife conservation. Waterfowl Funds from the sales of state duck stamps, US Fish & Wildlife Service(USFWS) Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration (Pittman-Robertson). Wildlife Management Areas play an important role in providing access and opportunity for the public to enjoy the outdoors and Alaska’s magnificent wildlife heritage.

    As I applaud the efforts to try to improve our areas like the new restroom and parking area we can alsohave a dialog on constructive criticism in how and where resources are managed.But Alaskans know from Cotton Wood to over at Mud Lake (Maud Rd) boat ramp is embarrassing to say the least. We deserve better access to our hunting and fishing areas. I hope they improve the Rabbit Slough parking lot to accommodateat least more than 4 vehicles. I was told well that will increase the size of the foot print, not a valid argument it is overdue. They should be embarrassed if they saw any DNR or state run facilities in the lower 48 not asking to beat that, just improve what we have within tolerable limits. Under the Wildlife Conservation Law of 1947, it is required that the State have a proprietary interest in the land or wateron which the improvements are made. My last issue, I do have a motive with and that’s the 1000lb limit that would eliminate almost all side by sides. It’s time to increase the weight limit and to be on par with BLM, Joint Base recreational standards and other states that have adopted (1500lb) to the popularity of the side by side. We do not create more damage than an ATV on the trail. A side by side can carry a passenger so that is one less wheeler. As some states do not allow passengers on ATVs traveling on State, County or Federal land.

    In closing I would like to say to fellow wheelers; If ATV users are irresponsible
    with the use of their machines, then there will be increasing pressure on land and wildlife management agencies to restrict ATVuse during hunting season. Already there are people, among them other hunters,who are asking for a total ban on ATV use during hunting season. Nobody likes regulations; but if irresponsible ATV use continues to cause unacceptable impacts, then regulations will become necessary to ensure protection of public lands. A better alternative would be for ATV users to recognize the impacts their activity can cause and voluntarily take steps to reduce those impacts. ATV users are not unique in this respect — as more and more people use public lands for recreation, the potential impacts of these activities are growing fast. Let’s take it personal so that public lands can be enjoyed by us and future generations.

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    Well said Philobeddoe. I invite you to come to one of the APH board meetings, hopefully some AF&G representatives will be there, and you views can be discussed. Yes, there is a move to stop ATV traffic on the refuge. It has not been decided as of yet, at least not announced. One thing to consider, reports from those who walked Cottonwood Creek last season seem to suggest that without all the people that hunt on ATV's that hunting in that area is much better for those who walk in. Less pressure, more birds stay in the area. Lots of pressure besides you to keep the area open to ATV's for hunting. Also lots of vidio and photos showing damage that is done to the refuge and increased drainage of the marsh due to ATV damage. I don't hear anybody saying to outlaw ATV's, just keep them off the refuge trails, and that is to be decided. Join us and be part of the decision, rather then to sit back and watch what happens and not be happy about it afterwards, if it goes against your own ideas. I will ask Joe Meehan if we can have a public meeting before hunting season and before the decision is made and announced regarding ATV traffic on the refuge. Bud
    Wasilla

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    First of all, Thank You for speaking up and voicing your opinion.

    I am one of those bad guys that wants to see foot traffic only on the palmer hayflats. I agree that I do have a "motive" and it is to pro long the destruction of this duck factory as long as possible. I would like to see this area in 20 years be as full of wildlife as it is today. Now as far as these "fictional theories based off those that had strayed off the trail so they could park to recreate and will take pictures as proof of misdoings" I have alot of faith in Joe Mehan (STATE OF ALASKA: FISH AND GAME COORDINATOR) and Doug Hill (STATE OF ALASKA :HABITAT BIOLIGIST II)who are the two guys that are handling this issue. They have put together a document that proves that the ATV's are accelrating the deconstruction of habitat, but hey your buddy from another state might know better. The document was not just some pictures that a young child drew with a crayon, these photos are both aerial and on site FACTS that the tidal gut is following the ATV trails. I am more than willing to provide you a copy of this collection of data if you would like. Its like having a hole in the bottom of your Jon Boat, you notice that your taking on water slowly, ok so time has passed and your chocolate lab is up on the seat because the floor is flooded, what do you do now? You do whatever it takes to make sure your boat doesnt sink,if you dont then you and your childern wont be able to use it any more. Dont Let The Boat Sink!!

    Also thank you for this
    [/QUOTE]
    In closing I would like to say to fellow wheelers; If ATV users are irresponsible
    with the use of their machines, then there will be increasing pressure on land and wildlife management agencies to restrict ATVuse during hunting season. Already there are people, among them other hunters,who are asking for a total ban on ATV use during hunting season. Nobody likes regulations; but if irresponsible ATV use continues to cause unacceptable impacts, then regulations will become necessary to ensure protection of public lands. A better alternative would be for ATV users to recognize the impacts their activity can cause and voluntarily take steps to reduce those impacts. ATV users are not unique in this respect — as more and more people use public lands for recreation, the potential impacts of these activities are growing fast. Let’s take it personal so that public lands can be enjoyed by us and future generations.[/QUOTE] I couldnt agree more!
    In your closing statement it seems that you have jumped to the dark side and you acknowledge the fact that keeping atvs in this area is not a wise idea.

    Also this little bit of info may kick the beehive a little harder if your not already frustrated, No matter what influences may be present (i.e. Duck Hunters, ATV Riders, Bird Watchers, Fisherman, Political) the wetlands must be the primary focus not access or any other arguements. With the info that both yourself and the State of Alaska have presented it looks like a few people have ruined it for the rest of the atv riders.

    In closing I would like to say, Thanks

    James McPhee
    "downeastah"

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    So lets say I have some sort of disability and couldn't manage carrying my decoys out or even jump shoot for very long? Use of ATV could really help someone in that situation. My mother likes to duck hunt with me and I would actually really enjoy being able to take my side by side there in order to have her be able to go along. Instead she can't really enjoy the area because I take my four wheeler instead and a wheeler with a bag of decoys is practically full. There are solutions to stopping drainage allegedly caused by four wheelers. I am biased and want to think a certain way, that being said, I don't think anyone could deny the fact that water erodes, when the marsh is filled by a tide, it will erode its way out. That is common sense. Now, I have a duck boat too and a duck shack on the west side of the inlet, I can hunt elsewhere easily, but why shouldn't the place be able to be enjoyed by everyone? My mother, my cousin with a bad leg that would most likely prevent him from making the walk? They have just as much right as someone like your selfish self has to get out there, and if theres already an ATV trail like there is why would you want that taken from these people? As far as once it's gone it's gone....no way is that true. Look at some of the ducks unlimited projects...I have seen private duck hunting area's men created. They're all over the lower 48. So to me... that makes the argument that that we'll loose a duck hunting area invalid. With work it can all be maintained, even rebuilt.
    It's not skybusting if you fold em'.

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    Very well stated


    Quote Originally Posted by philobeddoe View Post
    Cotton Wood Creek recreation area

    I wanted to express another point of view from a hunter who has huntedboth wildlife refuges and public WMAs (Wildlife managed Areas) in the lower 48.I have no ulterior motives I can hunt by either ATV or boat. Be cautious of those that flat out want to band ATVs as they do have a motive and a deliberate intention to try to band wheelers. Their intentions are obvious in that they make up fictional theories based off those that had strayed off the trail so they could park to recreate and will take pictures as proof of misdoings. I have first-hand knowledge, and the basis of my argument, that goes back to 1998, when I first started hunting this area.The trail was always in bad shape, and in fact there were times I could noteven make it the first mile. I refer to the real bad spot as the “elbow” about 1.0 mile to 2.5 of the trail. The elbow ends when the trail starts to run parallel with Rabbit Slough. There is a big cutout on the right of the elbow caused from the “TIDE” not ATVs for those with some common sense and know the power of water. If we have a tide of approximately 31 feet or better it comes over the top and rushes in the marsh when the outgoing tide goes out and it finds the path of least resistance and also takes soil with it each time. The attack that wheelers caused this is an intellectually vacant argument.

    I have had the pleasure of bringing up a childhood friend who is currently a Ducks Unlimited biologist for the state of Montana, to hunt ducks in Alaska. He was impressed with the marsh andits abundance of Sedge grass and the ability to provide nesting areas. He said the condition of the marsh was great considering all is based on mother natureand that there has been no projects set aside for this area. He also mentioned that watersheds are extremely resilient to recover. The trail didn’t even come up other than it’s another access point. All lands that DU rebuild/restore must have access, it’s a critical element due to the funding from private and businesses donors that endorse DUs work. Alaska as well as in most of the U.S., is acultural reason rooted in the North American Model of wildlife conservation. Waterfowl Funds from the sales of state duck stamps, US Fish & Wildlife Service(USFWS) Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration (Pittman-Robertson). Wildlife Management Areas play an important role in providing access and opportunity for the public to enjoy the outdoors and Alaska’s magnificent wildlife heritage.

    As I applaud the efforts to try to improve our areas like the new restroom and parking area we can alsohave a dialog on constructive criticism in how and where resources are managed.But Alaskans know from Cotton Wood to over at Mud Lake (Maud Rd) boat ramp is embarrassing to say the least. We deserve better access to our hunting and fishing areas. I hope they improve the Rabbit Slough parking lot to accommodateat least more than 4 vehicles. I was told well that will increase the size of the foot print, not a valid argument it is overdue. They should be embarrassed if they saw any DNR or state run facilities in the lower 48 not asking to beat that, just improve what we have within tolerable limits. Under the Wildlife Conservation Law of 1947, it is required that the State have a proprietary interest in the land or wateron which the improvements are made. My last issue, I do have a motive with and that’s the 1000lb limit that would eliminate almost all side by sides. It’s time to increase the weight limit and to be on par with BLM, Joint Base recreational standards and other states that have adopted (1500lb) to the popularity of the side by side. We do not create more damage than an ATV on the trail. A side by side can carry a passenger so that is one less wheeler. As some states do not allow passengers on ATVs traveling on State, County or Federal land.

    In closing I would like to say to fellow wheelers; If ATV users are irresponsible
    with the use of their machines, then there will be increasing pressure on land and wildlife management agencies to restrict ATVuse during hunting season. Already there are people, among them other hunters,who are asking for a total ban on ATV use during hunting season. Nobody likes regulations; but if irresponsible ATV use continues to cause unacceptable impacts, then regulations will become necessary to ensure protection of public lands. A better alternative would be for ATV users to recognize the impacts their activity can cause and voluntarily take steps to reduce those impacts. ATV users are not unique in this respect — as more and more people use public lands for recreation, the potential impacts of these activities are growing fast. Let’s take it personal so that public lands can be enjoyed by us and future generations.
    President of Alaska Waterfowl Assoc.
    http://akwaterfowl.com
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alask...78020265619952
    AlaskaWaterfowlAssociation@gmail.com
    Gen.1:26
    And God said, let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

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    Well if we want to pull the disabled or the cant get around like i use to card i have a perfect example, my mother and i also love to hunt together. She just had her second hip replaced. my Brother in law cant walk more than a few miles on level ground. i hunt with a guy that is 70 and doesnt get around well at all, he lives here in the summer and in oregon in the fall to duck hunt. I fly down twice a year to shoot with him and he basically walks 50 yards on flat dry ground.Id love to take these people out with me to this spot but they just cant make it, i still feel the same way as i did before. Hopefully you will retract your selfish comment, that you mentioned before. Id like to see the view from pioneer peek will you put an atv trail in for me because i need double knee surgery and cant climb that much. If a few people including myself have to find other places to hunt that are easier to get to than so be it.

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    So they want to ban atv's who could of seen that coming? Next boats will get it, they have to cause erosion all those wakes. Well foot trails harm vegetation causing erosion. Then who will enjoy it? Hey they could then sell the new bridge or move it to shut off another hunting spot. It is somewhat funny that this was not a problem when it was air planes that were banned? Think of all the stories we can tell about how we got to hunt on our land once upon a time. I do believe in taking care of our lands. Lets not get ridiculous. Better yet leave it to the bureaucrats some sarcasm intended. You the man Philo who would of thought a duck hunter with intellect?

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    I'm on philodobe's side of this line for sure.
    It's not skybusting if you fold em'.

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    Philobeddo. Odd autocorrect lol
    It's not skybusting if you fold em'.

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    Well there's always got to be two sides of every discussion. I've been very involved with this for months now and iam happy with the way its headed.Either way ill still kill a ton of birds this year.

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    My 3 bucks worth..
    Its going to be a long discussion/debate for sure. I hope there can be a compromise at some point. Seems there are only a few groups that are really involved in the discussion and it probably should stay with that. The less the better and the easier it will be to compromise. I personally have never accessed the area from Cottonwood but know plenty of my friends that do both by foot and ATV. I see both sides and have also seen the benefits from the year it was not open to ATVs. More ducks, less pressure and more opportunities for waterfowlers. On the other hand, why limit those who cannot physically get out there and share the love of the waterfowling sport? What I do not want to see happen is the encroachment of non-hunters abusing the system to enforce tighter restraints’ and regulations on the waterfowling community.

    I have worked with many states in wetland conservation project and programs over the years and have seen the restrictions help and hinder the hunting sport. Alaska is a very generous state in regards to hunting and land access compared to many lower 48 states BLM/COE lands. I know this is a very important subject. I think most agree we need to have some serious discussion and healthy debate on the issue. But not blow smoke, send signals nor waste everyone’s time with loose lip service. I am pretty sure Joe and Doug would sit down and listen to proposals, share ideas, philosophy and make honest suggestions..after all..we help make their jobs easier by doing so…on the other hand I have only seen in the last year a handful really get involved in doing so as Bud has pointed out and pursue the battle on the front lines. Most often it is easier to sit on the bench or in the foxhole and lend a deaf ear or criticize without proposing and solution…lot of smart guys and gals on the forum..but a small percentage actually get from behind the computer and in front of someone to express their actual concerns. Lets hope more do before it is too late.

    I agree with Philobeddoe in regards to ATV use. The tides and normal wear and tear from mother nature has and will continue to degrade the small footprint of the area used for access. The ATV users..responsible ones I am sure do their best to maintain a healthy respect for what trail is there given the conditions. I don’t think banning all ATV use is going to bring anything back(maybe help enhance a 15ft wide trail)..nor make a huge difference in what mother nature already has planned in the years to come. I think a study should be performed, data collected, funds spent and every mean to possible explored prior to incorporating any more regulations or restrictions on this small footprint. (If you pull this up on Google Earth and look at the trails, it is not a huge area utilized by the ATV users.) Not to mention it is only utilized during a 3 month timeframe regularly.. If that.

    We all have a great area out there with a huge footprint to share with who might want their slice..but at some point..enough is enough. Not sure the State of Alaska actually needs the funds that could be generated by the vast expansion of museums, nature centers etc. There are plenty of Federal funds available if applied for through the state and organizations to help enhance programs and projects if correctly lobbied for. These funds as well as partnerships with other organizations sharing the same interest could move mountains if they too the time to sit down and combined resources, funds and formulated a plan.

    I am concerned that some organization might have a higher agenda and want to make a statement in the name of science/conservation practices/philosophy. We all have a right to recreational activities/ hunt, bird watch or whatever on that land as our ancestors did before us, to preserve, restore and maintain it. Not restrict, provide more regulations, or degrade it.

    Balance is the key….and can only be achieved if one aligns himself with an equal amount of understanding and respect from all who enjoy it.
     
     
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    AlaskaWaterfowlAssociation@gmail.com
    Gen.1:26
    And God said, let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

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    I just sent the following email:

    From:
    "bud bass" <budbassc21@yahoo.com>
    View contact details


    To:
    "JoeMeehan" <joe.meehan@alaska.gov>, "DougHill" <doug.hill@alaska.gov>


    Cc:
    "Shaun Jensen" <svjensen@alasco.net>, "Hugh Clark" <Alaskadh01@gmail.com>, director@palmerhayflats.org



    The subject of ATV use on the Palmer Hay flats Refuge, specifically, Cottonwood Creek access area has come up again on the Outdoor Directory Waterfowl Forum. We did have the meeting in Palmer this winter where erosion and trail damage was discussed at length by both Joe and Doug, and there was much input from hunters present. From those present, I believe the consensus was to do what is best for the ducks. It appears there is a large number of people who are more concerned about easy hunter access then what is best for the ducks. I am requesting that we have a public meeting prior to the opening of waterfowl hunting season, and prior to the making of a decision on ATV access to Cottonwood Creek. So both hunters, non hunters, and wildlife professionals can express their views of the best direction to go. At least then, when the decision is announced, people on both sides of the issue will have knowledge of what the decision is based on.
    Wasilla

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    As a ATV owner I am not anti-ATV, I live in the bush and use mine for work related things more than recreation but do enjoy them in a responsible manner. However, it is becoming more and more common to see the damage irresponsible atver's commit. My gripe is winter time with 6 inches of new snow it seems like every owner of a side by side wants to ruin the trail system. There is a time and place for everything folks. Now don't get your "It's everyone's trail to use" cry going because I aint talking about rights, I'm talking about common sense! Philobeddoe, you recognize the problem. The problem is that it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone. Unfortunately there are more and more of them showing up!

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    I'm glad to see the new bridge is installed and I wanted to thank all of you who undertook that construction project. Thank You! I started duck hunting here in AK in 08. I have a friend up in Fairbanks ADAF at the time show me the ropes to hunting in Alaska as I taught him the ropes in FL. I hunted the local spot Maud Rd for a bit and it got really old fast without the right tools for the job. A awesome friend took me out to the flats for the first time in 2011 and I fell in love with the place. It is a bit far and there are closer places, but the people and hunting ethic is what keeps luring me back. What a great place to hunt. I agree with PHILOBEDDOE all the way around. It would be a shame to loose this hunting opportunity to foot traffic only. I know for a fact I wouldn't attempt it. I cant wait to see the trail on wheeler opening day. (Mr Philobeddoe ) I think AKBLACKDOG is right...You should attend the meetings and advocate for the betterment of a natural resource for all to enjoy.

  15. #15

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    The atv trail is accelerating the headward advancement of tidal guts from rabbit slough towards the main body of the marsh during high water events because the water runs along the trail like a creek since there is no vegetation to disperse the flow and funnels it into the guts at a higher volume than if there were no trail. I have seen it with my own eyes and have not ridden a 4 wheeler out there since. This unnatural erosion is not caused by illegal or intentionally irresponsible use, it is along the legal trail.
    If you can't walk out there you might consider a boat. A canoe would not be too tough to get over the bridge and into the water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by extrema View Post
    The atv trail is accelerating the headward advancement of tidal guts from rabbit slough towards the main body of the marsh during high water events because the water runs along the trail like a creek since there is no vegetation to disperse the flow and funnels it into the guts at a higher volume than if there were no trail. I have seen it with my own eyes and have not ridden a 4 wheeler out there since. This unnatural erosion is not caused by illegal or intentionally irresponsible use, it is along the legal trail.
    If you can't walk out there you might consider a boat. A canoe would not be too tough to get over the bridge and into the water.
    Do you think the mud flats at low tide would be a problem with a boat? It's pretty sketchy to walk on, and I can see people getting into trouble if they tried and don't know what they are doing.
    Some people call it sky busting... I call it optimism
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckslayer56 View Post
    Do you think the mud flats at low tide would be a problem with a boat? It's pretty sketchy to walk on, and I can see people getting into trouble if they tried and don't know what they are doing.
    ??? I am talking about paddling a canoe around the marsh at Cottonwood, not tackling the Arm at low tide.

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    Another forum member commented to me; "How much damage can we tolerate?
    When is enough ---enough

    Yes, hunters will have ATV use of Cottonwood Creek trail this season, and possibly for seasons to come. Those of you that blame the damage and draining of the marsh on the tidal surges, have either never been there or are blind or just shutting off your otherwise open mind to the obvious because you want to hunt there the easy way.

    Duck hunting has never been easy. I remember when as a kid I use to drive to Grizzly Island Refuge in the San Francisco Delta area and park and carry my bag of deks for what seemed like miles, along the dikes, just to get away from the hords of other hunters, my first experience hunting ducks. Now the use of ATV's is more important to many then preserving the habitat. If we could put a hardened trail all the way out, and be assured that people will keep their ATV,s on it. I could support ATV hunting out there. It would involved some maintance. The matts eventually sink into the mud, and the water over them gets deeper, maybe people will have to switch to using Argos rather then the conventional wheeled ATV. I am not anti ATV, I do have one. Thrashing though the mud out there, digging trenches with oversize tires, is not ideal ATV terraine and their unrestricted use will cost us a lot of ducks over the years.

    A canoe on cottonwood creek I would think is only for the very cautious. At low tide, not much water at all. Really need to watch the tide tables, that bore tide coming in can rush right in on you and swamp that canoe. My own opinion, best way to hunt the area for those unable to walk that distance is by boat, much like I hunt off the Knik. Take a boat to your area, anchor it, walk and hunt areas within walking distance of shore. Yea, it will take some exploring, checking it out at low and high tide levels, finding places that hold water and you can leave your boat without haveing to wait for the tide to come up and float it. But it is doable and can be done safely. If you look and study a map of that eastern shoreline, from cottonwood creek south, you can see that the ATV trail only gives access to one small portion of that marsh. There is a very large protion of marshland there that goes virtually unhunted thoughout the season. I'm sure a few have discovered it, there are lakes shown on the maps people must know about and have walked in and hunted.

    My point is there is a lot of area you can hunt out there, without risking distroying and draining thousands of acres of marshland and thus reducing thousands of ducks from the harvest of Alaska hunters. Bud
    Wasilla

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    Couple of thoughts on improving access:

    1) The average "quality" of participants tends to be directly proportional to the level of exertion required to gain access. (translation: as access gets easier more, and ever lazier, slobs use the area)

    2) Improving access on "multiple use" lands always has the effect of disenfranchising hunters. ALWAYS


    Here's my Hay Flats wetdream...

    1) Waterfowlers are required to buy/wear back tags (like deer hunters back east) to ease enforcement from a distance
    2) During legal shooting hours Friday-Monday/federal holidays, within the waterfowl season, access to the Flats is reserved for the purpose of hunting waterfowl and/or other game as allowed by ADF&G regulations. This means no dog walking, jogging, sightseeing, bird watching or any other activity that could interfere with legal hunting, or potentially put non-hunters in harm's way from stray pellets (public safety and all).
    3) The funds derived from the sale of back tags is reserved for habitat enhancement within the refuge.

    Now, I realize that none of the above will ever happen but that's my dream.

    WE are always being asked to make concessions. No one else, just US. Land managers inevitably chip away at hunters' access and use of the land one parking lot, hardened trail, or vistor's center at a time. Oh, and let's not forget the buffer zones that will invariably go with these so-called improvements. My point is, cooperation is all well and good but we (and those who would presume to represent us) need to proceed with extreme caution when "improving" public hunting grounds.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

  20. #20
    Member duckslayer56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by extrema View Post
    ??? I am talking about paddling a canoe around the marsh at Cottonwood, not tackling the Arm at low tide.
    My bad, sorry about the mis understanding. In that case I've seen guys use a canoe out there, they seem to do pretty well using the muskrat trails as a way to get around.
    Some people call it sky busting... I call it optimism
    "Swans are a gift" -DucksandDogs
    I am a shoveler's worst nightmare!

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