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Thread: "Wild" Alaskan Salmon

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    Default "Wild" Alaskan Salmon

    Interesting story from the ADN today: http://www.adn.com/2013/06/12/293739...-narrowly.html

    The lower 48 doesn't see this side of the story about the famous (and expensive) Copper River Reds. Should we thus use the phrase "Wild Caught" rather than "Wild" should be used to accurately describe the Copper River Reds?
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    This practice happens in many locations including, PWS, Kodiak, and Southeast. The hatchery decreases the mortality from the egg to fry stage and then releases them into lakes via the crop duster and Mother Nature takes over.

    In some areas the fry are put into lakes with waterfalls preventing salmon from getting up them to spawn. The smolt out migrating survive the waterfall fall and then return to a terminal fishery for the commercial fleet.

    The state needs to start this with the kings for a while until we can get the decline reversed.

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    Interesting story, with a good outcome. Or at least it wasn't a tragic ending, which was certainly possible.

    However, I'm curious about one aspect of the hatchery. The story says it's the largest sockeye hatchery in the world. Okay, but given that, how do they know if it is successful? They raise sockeye fry by the millions, drop them into a lake, and then what? How does anyone know if any of these fish return as adults? The article says that anywhere from 11 to 40% of the returning adults are from this hatchery, but how do they know? Perhaps they mark them before they are released, but I can't imagine they can mark millions of salmon fry. If they don't mark these fish, they have no way of knowing how successful it is.

    So, the bottom line is that the largest sockeye hatchery in the world may be producing absolutely zero adult salmon. I certainly hope that is not the case, but the question remains: How to they assess the ability of this hatchery to achieve it's objectives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    Interesting story, with a good outcome. Or at least it wasn't a tragic ending, which was certainly possible.

    However, I'm curious about one aspect of the hatchery. The story says it's the largest sockeye hatchery in the world. Okay, but given that, how do they know if it is successful? They raise sockeye fry by the millions, drop them into a lake, and then what? How does anyone know if any of these fish return as adults? The article says that anywhere from 11 to 40% of the returning adults are from this hatchery, but how do they know? Perhaps they mark them before they are released, but I can't imagine they can mark millions of salmon fry. If they don't mark these fish, they have no way of knowing how successful it is.

    So, the bottom line is that the largest sockeye hatchery in the world may be producing absolutely zero adult salmon. I certainly hope that is not the case, but the question remains: How to they assess the ability of this hatchery to achieve it's objectives?
    Not sure cohoangler but I think they thermal mark them so it is easy to mark millions.

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    In MN they mark fingerlings by putting some tetracycline in the water. Later you can look at some of the vertebra under a black light and it will show if it was a hatchery fish

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    Default hatchery marking

    From what I've read they vary the water temperature to effect the growth of a bone in the ear. They can then compare the growth rings in the ear bone to the water temperature variation in the hatchery.

    I think the most interesting thing I've read about ID'ing fish is that of the Kenai system sockeye: they all have parasitic worms while those in the upper Cook inlet / MatSu valley do not have the worms. Anybody for some nice fresh undercooked Kenai red salmon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Not sure cohoangler but I think they thermal mark them so it is easy to mark millions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    From what I've read they vary the water temperature to effect the growth of a bone in the ear. They can then compare the growth rings in the ear bone to the water temperature variation in the hatchery.

    ?
    That would be thermal marking
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    They live or die in the "wild", so there is no real control over them once they are released very early in their life, so maybe saying they are "wild" isn't too far off the mark. In my opinion, it isn't nearly as bad and using the word "natural" or "organic" on foods that have GMO or obviously non-natural ingredients.

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    Wink Al organic . . .

    Just call those salmon "free range," "all organic," "no artificial ingredients," and your troubles are over.


    Who cares beyond that?


    After all, that's essentially what "wild" means.


    Tempest in a teacup . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by FishGod View Post
    That would be thermal marking
    Does the thermal mark express itself on scales or does it have to be otoliths?

    ClearCreek

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    Thermal marking shows up on the scales as well as the otoliths. Both record age rings, but otoliths are more reliable. Scales can show false rings due to stress.
    Your bait stinks and your boat is ugly

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    Default hatchery or wild..

    The fish farmers were the ones who complained over the labeling of "wild salmon" since the fish started their lifes in hatcheries just like the farmed fish do. The hatchery fish - both farmed and "wild caught" are fed artifical food and may be treated with antibiotics etc so there are some non-natrual ingredients in both.

    IMO the fish farmers have a valid complaint with labeling fish of hatchery origin as "wild". In the interest of honest food labeling, the "wild caught" salmon which are or may be of hatchery origin should be labeled as such. Likewise, farmed fish should be clearly labeled as "farmed salmon"; not Atlantic salmon etc. I think both sides are guilty of some deceptive labeling. As a consumer, I think more information is better in helping me to make my food choices.


    Quote Originally Posted by NRick View Post
    They live or die in the "wild", so there is no real control over them once they are released very early in their life, so maybe saying they are "wild" isn't too far off the mark. In my opinion, it isn't nearly as bad and using the word "natural" or "organic" on foods that have GMO or obviously non-natural ingredients.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Tv-
    This is the first I've heard of the fish farmers complaint. I think you made it up. Please reference this .

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    Just as I thought

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    Default a little effort..

    Why do you think the term "wild caught" came into use instead of simply "wild" salmon? Hint: It wasn't because the sellers just wanted to be more truthful.

    Try a little research yourself. You could learn quite a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    Tv-
    This is the first I've heard of the fish farmers complaint. I think you made it up. Please reference this .
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Thumbs up Wild-caught and free-range . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Why do you think the term "wild caught" came into use . .

    What's the story with shrimp? I know the shrimp sold here at Fred Meyer is farm-raised if it isn't labeled "wild-caught."


    Tried farmed shrimp once . . yuck! All we buy is shrimp labeled "wild-caught," usually from Mexico . . world of difference.


    We like lamb for its taste and are very comfortable eating it . . lamb is the original free-range animal. For our money, could care less where it was born as long as it was fed right between birth and butchering, and that means free-range or wild.

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    Default farmed, free range, wild, etc


    From what I can tell all shrimp is either farmed or wild - don't know where the "wild caught" came from but they may be copying the salmon marketers. I'll look at the shrimp next time I'm in the seafood dept. Last time I checked 96% of the shrimp currrently being sold in the US is farmed. Probably the same or larger percentage for cat fish, trout, etc. Not sure what it is now for farmed salmon.

    The issue with the stocked or ranched salmon of course is that the "wild caught" fish spend a significant part of their life span in a hatchery where they are fed artifical food and may be treated with antibiotics etc. just like farmed salmon.

    Advertising has always been a place where the truth is stretched as far as possible - or downright lies are used if the seller thinks he may get away with them. "Buyer Beware" of everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    What's the story with shrimp? I know the shrimp sold here at Fred Meyer is farm-raised if it isn't labeled "wild-caught."

    Tried farmed shrimp once . . yuck! All we buy is shrimp labeled "wild-caught," usually from Mexico . . world of difference.

    We like lamb for its taste and are very comfortable eating it . . lamb is the original free-range animal. For our money, could care less where it was born as long as it was fed right between birth and butchering, and that means free-range or wild.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Thumbs up "Wild-Caught" . . . it's what we buy . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    From what I can tell all shrimp is either farmed or wild - don't know where the "wild caught" came from but they may be copying the salmon marketers. I'll look at the shrimp next time I'm in the seafood dept. Last time I checked 96% of the shrimp currrently being sold in the US is farmed. Probably the same or larger percentage for cat fish, trout, etc. Not sure what it is now for farmed salmon.

    The issue with the stocked or ranched salmon of course is that the "wild caught" fish spend a significant part of their life span in a hatchery where they are fed artifical food and may be treated with antibiotics etc. just like farmed salmon.

    Advertising has always been a place where the truth is stretched as far as possible - or downright lies are used if the seller thinks he may get away with them. "Buyer Beware" of everything.



    Be interested to hear what you find out about the shrimp. The farmed shrimp we tried was nowhere near as good as the wild-caught shrimp from Mexico. Are those wild-caught shrimp raised in hatcheries and turned loose into the wild?


    We won't buy ranched salmon and eat only the wild-caught that we either dip-net or buy from local processors. As to whether they're born wild or born in a hatchery, I could care less as long as they've spent at least a year in the wild eating wild food. Pinks, I guess, are only out there a year, but we don't throw them back when caught in salt water . . taste just fine after a year of eating only wild foodówe can our pinks. Reds of course are much better after a few years in the wild.


    That said, I guess there's no food on earth these days that doesn't contain some amount of nasty stuff in them what with the way everything is polluted to some degree or another. They even warn us about eating too much wild-caught tuna because of the high concentrations of junk in their fat.


    Don't know, don't care . . we do the best we can eating wild, wild-caught, or organic meats 99% of the time. We look for the label "Wild Caught" and won't buy without it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Why do you think the term "wild caught" came into use instead of simply "wild" salmon? Hint: It wasn't because the sellers just wanted to be more truthful.

    Try a little research yourself. You could learn quite a lot.

    Still waiting.... Where and when did the fish farmers complain of labeling fish with hatchery origins as wild?

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