Has anyone seen that new Leverevolution ammo by Hornady? I shows some writers from NRA and Guns and ammo mag. trying it out on various game like Buffalo.
Does anyone think you could use that new 45-70 load on Brown Bear? Itís a 325g bullet moving at 2025fps
Does anyone think it could perform with Ammo from ConBore their 350g jacketed bullet?
I haven't seen any of the 45-70 Leverevolution ammo here in Anchorage, only the 30-30 loads. V.F. Grace, the major distributor here hasn't gotten any in as yet. I'm wondering about supply and demand being lopsided.
My own personal choice would be a hardcast flatnose 400 grain bullet at about 1600-1700 fps in 45-70 for big bear, for penetration and good wound channels in and out. I would restrict shots with this kind of load to 100 yards or less. I believe that the better cast bullets, such as thoise from Cast Performance will break large bones and still penetrate.
I've been asking the same question. It seems if the load is designed for the 2000+ velocities they are claiming that it should work well. I would like some more info however, it may not hold together if it slams into something solid like a Brown Bear. Let me know if you find out any additional information. Jim
None In Fairbanks Yet
I haven't seen any 45-70 or 450M here in Fairbanks yet. Only 30-30 and just recently 35 Rem.
Any more opinions? Murphy what do you think?
Little Rubber Tips on My Bullets...
I think this ammo is about as worth while as tits on a duck!
Let me be more to the point. Why would ammo makers do this.
1. Nobody asked for it.
2. There is no (zero) ballistic advantage to it.
3. Any trajectory advantage to it will be negated by the inaccuracy of gun and shooters.
4. The same velocity can be achieved with any design of bullet of that weight.
5. They resort to comparisons of older low pressure loads to make the new stuff look good.
If we look at the 405 grain 45-70 load at 1350 fps and then the 300 grain rubber tips at 2000 fps...wow it looks mucho better. The 45-70 is still real slow compared to modern calibers, so it will never be a speed demon and will never get it's energy (killing power) from velocity. All of these lever guns are in calibers that give only moderate velocity and that is one of the benefits of them. If we wanted a high velocity caliber we would buy a 7mm Ultra.
The 45-70 with lightweight jacketed bullets is at it's worst as a hunting arm. The very best performance we can get from the 45-70 is to push heavy, (400 grains or greater) hard cast, bullets to about 1800 fps (Max). The hard cast will not expand but will exit. It will exit even a large bear. A .458" hole through all of the important clockwork parts of a bear is much more effective than any 300 grain bullet making a nasty shallow wound in bear muscle.
Bear bones stop jacketed bullets, jacketed bullets are soft, with or without soft plastic tips and will expand rapidly in animal tissue. When they expand, they hit the brakes, they stop moving forward, they make a shallow wound. In small animals, deer for instance, this isn't a problem. The vitals of a blacktail aren't too far under the skin and the mass of bones and muscle aren't so tough. A moose is big! Even a small moose is big! Always use big bullets for big guys. Always use big tough bullets for big tough guys.
Other than that, I think the soft plastic tipped bullets are cute, there's a good reason to use them! Good shootin'.
Thanks for thinkin' of me.
Last edited by Murphy; 06-19-2006 at 21:28.
Murphy good points
Well stated and I agree with a lot of what you said. But I never liked the idea of “energy” being killing power of a rifle. If for example a rifle had 3500 ft/lbs of energy it would rip your shoulder off your body when you shot it. I think the only measure of killing power is tissue damage, and yes if you can’t get to the vitals it’s worthless. But I have to think some idiot loading a ballistic tip 150g bullet in a 300 mag. rifle moving 3500fps, and thinking it’s going to put a Brown Bear on it’s butt because it did it to a whitetail last fall, is way different that a 325 controlled expansion bullet moving at 2000fps.
I’m sure your what you said is true, a 400g hard cast is always going to get the job done. But I have always been a enthusiast if expansion and a bullet shedding about 30% of it’s weight. It leads to large wound channels, secondary wound channels, and will still exit the animal, but I don’t have any illusions that an expanding bullet will out penetrate a solid.
Just as an example my favorite bullets are Nolser Partition and Accubond, in lieu of a Barnes X. I have always thought of it if solids were so great one could use a Military full metal jacket and kill anything, and its just not true.
All in all I'm still thinking about this new round form Hornady Thanks for your insite.
45-70 and little bullets
I don't think you understand my point and I don't think I understood your question.
When you asked about the leverevolution ammo I thought you were asking about the merits of the "spitzer" bullet of lighter weight and higher velocity. Mostly my response was in reference to that line of thinking and how I consider a spitzer bullet useless at those velocities and at ranges at which it would be appropriate to hunt with them (the lever gun calibers). There is no advantage to a short light weight spitzer, soft tip or not in a 45-70 at 2000 fps. By advantage I mean trajectory wise.
The purpose for the soft tip pointed bullets was to allow a "spitzer" design to be used in tubular magazines of the lever guns without detonating the primer of the round in front from the recoil of firing the gun. The manufacturer claims an advantage but loads a lighter for caliber bullet weight to up velocity then compares it with heavier, slower blunt nose designs to make their point.
Now as to light, meaning 300, 325, 350 grain, bullets in the 45-70 at 2000 fps they cannot penetrate as well as a heavier bullet. Even if all are of the same hard cast composition, penetration in any medium, will be greater with heavier bullets. (400, 420, 450, etc.) Jacketed soft point "controlled expansion" bullets come in many guises. Some are tougher than others, meaning they will expand more slowly or require higher velocity to expand, when fired into a given medium. The 350 grain hot core Speer bullet is made for 458 WM velocity and will expand more slowly or very little when fired at 45-70 velocity. But it won't fit into the lever guns, being a semispitzer, flat nose design. The Hornady 350 grain flat point is a tougher built bullet than the 325 grain "rubber tips".
Terminal performance of a bullet is affected greatly by velocity. The zapping quick kill effect of the 270 (on deer sized critters) can never be acheived by the 45-70 and by increasing the velocity to it's limit still won't approach that performance nor will it approach the flat trajectory of the 270.
At velocities below 2400 fps this high velocity "shock", as it is often called, is non existant. The best the old 45-70 can hope for is to push heavy bullets through the target with it's greater momentum. Not to destroy more tissue with secondary projectile and bullet fragments. A deep .458" wound is more lethal than a shallow .720" wound. (except in smaller targets.) Also penetration is a product of momentum, sectional density, and bullet construction.
Momentum=mass x velocity (heavier increases)
Sectional density= weight(pounds)/diameter squared. (heavier increases)
Energy=1/2 mass X velocity squared (increasing velocity does little to change momentum and nothing to change SD) The greater energy is used to destroy the bullet or deform it(expand, mushroom, fragment) and this further reduces penetration.
"if solids were so great one could use a Military full metal jacket and kill anything, and its just not true."
There is a great deal of difference between military FMG spitzers and solid, blunt nosed hunting bullets, as would be the case with the hard cast LBT style hunting bullets. The long pointed spitzers do not expand and become unstable at imapact. They do not penetrate in a straight line and will swap ends after impact with the target. The fragile 223 bullets turn 90 degrees then break up and fragment when velocity is high (close contact) and almost never exit. Military bullets are not designed to make a quick kill.
Smaller caliber (.308") higher velocity (2800+fps) expanding bullets can equal (and exceed) the "wounding ability " of the older style, heavier, slower, larger caliber, non expanding bullets. But to try to make the slow, heavy, large caliber guns equal the smaller high velocity guns, by going to lighter bullets, is not possible unless we can push them to much higher velocity, which we can't do for several reasons, and 2000 fps is way too slow to approach the effectiveness of even a 30-06.
You ask about using a 325 grain soft point expanding bullet in the 45-70 for large brown bear hunting, I think that would be a mistake. When you find a caliber and load that will drop a bull moose at the shot and exit, without a spine or brain shot, you will have found your brown bear medicine. Until then, keep looking. Good shootin'.
Sounds good, thanks Murphy! You’re a wealth of information.
I have used a 45-70 for many years for bears.....and the 350 gr Stoner Hardcast FNGC with RL7 is perfect @ 2000 FPS.
Iraq kept running off after getting shot with 5.56mm......very bad bullets.....too hard!
ok so i have a question. i was told that in the shorter barrels as in the marlin Model 1895GS that has an 18.5" barrel the heavier bullets over 350 grains "tumble" out of the barrel, but in the longer 22 inch barrel it shoots fine. Does this sound true or not??? would the heavier bullet tumble due to the short barrel or is the heavier bullet still a more productive round for Penetration??? thanks vegas
Takin' a Tumble
Many people who are not knowledgeable about guns and shooting make a lot of statements that seem to be founded only in fantasy or in the movies. This sounds like one of those statements.
Barrel length has no direct effect on the stability of a bullet once it leaves the barrel. It is true that a bullet must have a certain twist rate and velocity to be stablized but the loss of a few fps in velocity will not cause a gross instability in the bullet. It might reduce it's accuracy at long range by some measurable amount, but not at the muzzle.
So, the answer to your question is NO! If you want to know alittle more about bullets and stability you could check out a couple other posts.
Maybe these will help. Good shootin'.
I had the same question about the 325 grain Lever Evolution. I called hornady and this what they told me, this bullet will retain a minimum of 80% of the bullet mass, the rep also told me that several of the people who work there tested this bullet in the field and killed Brown Bears, Buffalo, Elk I understand an Elk is not in the same class as the other 2, and only one time did the bullet not exit through the other side of the animal and the one that did not was between the animals flesh and skin on the other side of the entry wound. I know they sell the ammunition and want you to but it. I have not decided which round I will hunt with, places like these make you second guess yourself. The rep also told me that this bullet is not designed to break apart rather "it is designed to expand" which will slow the bullet down and if you do hit a big tough bone it may not do the deed
Last week I went out to check my #3 in 45/70 and see how she was shooting. I shot one box of the Hornady and four rounds of the BB 430gr. The Hornady gave to me anyway a sharper recoil than the BB,big suprise as this was to be my kinda plinking and fun round. Both shot to the same point on the target which I find happens alot with the 45/70 and different bullet weights. For my final two rounds,one each I shot into a log about 14"s across and exit holes were about the same for each with the BB maybe a bit larger.All the ground at the range is from small to large rock and I was unable to recover the bullets. I don't feel under gunned carrying the Hornady in bear country to hunt deer or black bear but I also carry a couple BB in case I felt I needed them and had time to change shells. If I was going to hunt brownies I would carry the BB's because I have them but I wouldn't not hunt if all I had was the Hornady round. You have to admit its more bullet than any of the handgun round stoppers
We have sold a ton of Leverrevolution 45-70 (its onje of our biggest sellers) and have had good reports of accuracy and functioning so far, but havent heard yet from folks who shot anyhting with them.
We are now working with Swift bullets...I have a pic of what that does to a bear and will post it later
Heres the way the Swifts perform:
The Swift 350 gr. bullet fired from a Wild West Guns .457 mag at
aprox. 50 yds. Bullet entered from a left quarting frontal shot into
the neck below the left side of the jaw, traveled along the neck bone. It broke the the top of 6 rib bones and busted thru the back bone severing the spine behing the front shoulders and came to a stop in the hide about midway down the bear. I shot the down thrashing bear 3 more times with a side shot on the left shoulder that busted the shoulder and ribs into many pieces, these bullets passed completely thru and left dibits in the ground behind. I was not able to find any of these bullets. I opened the wound channel up to show the path and damage. The recovered bullet is on the knife blade.
Was that bearburger made from a brown or black?
I am of the opinion that the LR bullets are probably on the light side for Brown bears. I shot a small griz with good 405gr Kodiak bullets out of my 457WW at close range and while the bear went down I had no exit holes. The bullets were under the skin on the far side and one did break both shoulders but none came out. I saw a friend of mine shoot a coyote at about 65yds with the rubber tip jobs and he got a voley ball sized exit. telling me they expand too fast.