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Thread: Rule Reminder for Participants in this Forum

  1. #1
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Rule Reminder for Participants in this Forum

    Hi folks,

    As some of you know, this forum is being carried on our site, without a sponsor (we are paying for it). The original intent was for the annual $800 sponsorship fee to be covered by the members, but for whatever reason that has not happened the last few years.

    What adds to the frustration for our management team is that a handful of members have used this forum to bash Glaciercraft itself, or its owner. This is a clear violation of our forum rules. For the most part, this has been a great tool to help owners of Glaciercraft boats with questions about rigging, performance, places to go and even displaying photos of your boats in action. Let's keep it that way, and keep negative comments about products, companies and so forth off our forums. Such posts will be deleted, and infractions issued. If you accumulate enough infractions, you will be suspended from this site.

    Thank you for your participation on Outdoors Directory.

    Here's to a great summer!

    Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

  2. #2
    Member jrogers's Avatar
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    Mike,

    I encourage you to really listen to what this poster is saying here. In his case, if you think he is making it up, request that he posts some facts, such as the order, invoice, and NSF check. This would help others tell if he is being truthful or just making things up. I think you delete these posts because you are worried about legal action from the vendor if the information is fraudulent. I have another concern that you should consider. When someone is wronged by a vendor, they may choose to take legal action against the vendor. Maybe you should have some concern that by presenting a one sided view of the vendor, you may be opening your company up to being named in the suit and have some liability. I recommend that you talk to your legal counsel about the liability of your current 'delete anything negative' policy which allows for a very distorted view of reality.
    2009 Seawolf 31'
    www.seawolfmarine.com
    Fully Loaded

  3. #3
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, I don't presume to speak for Mike here, but the reasons for this rule have been well hashed out in the past. Again, it is a matter of liability. Sites similar to ours have incurred tens of thousands of dollars of legal bills defending themselves against libel suits. Such a lawsuit would bankrupt this site regardless of the merits of the case. While Alaska Outdoors Directory may seem a large website, it operates on very narrow margins and does not have the financial wherewithal to mount a legal defense in the manner that the aforementioned sites did.

    To those who think that is a ridiculous excuse, I really don't know what to say. Would you put your business at risk to aid in spreading information that you cannot verify? Your home and personal finances at risk? That is in reality what you are asking Mike to do. Yes, I know that there are those who can verify the accusations against this manufacturer. We, however, cannot be tasked with verifying each and every accusation against a commercial operator that comes across our bow. Once we allow such comments, our forums would be at ever increasing risk of lawsuits as the posts pile up against numerous operators without any way for us to verify what is going on. Again, to be clear - even if the accusations are 100% true, we're still at risk for a lawsuit which, even if it is without merit, can bankrupt the site due to the costs involved with a legal defense.

    As for not being able to do due diligence because of this rule, I personally call BS on that one. Numerous people have posted here about this very company stating that they have had a negative experience and inviting people to PM them for more information. That is a perfectly acceptable practice. If I were about to drop 150k on a boat, you can bet that I would make a post asking for information - and if there was negative information to be shared, it could be done so via the PM system. The same is true for any other commercial operation. I've received and shared negative feedback on air services, fishing charters, ATV service providers, and more. There is an absolutely effective way of sharing and requesting such info which does not put the site at risk. That is all we ask. Personally speaking, refusing that method and instead asking someone else to bear incredible financial risk is indefensible.

  4. #4
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    Will I receive another infraction if I posted a link to the BBB which posts a grade for businesses and is public information? Will I receive an infraction for posting links to the AK Court System which publishes public records for individuals and businesses which are being sued in court?

  5. #5
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1S1K View Post
    Will I receive another infraction if I posted a link to the BBB which posts a grade for businesses and is public information? Will I receive an infraction for posting links to the AK Court System which publishes public records for individuals and businesses which are being sued in court?
    We don't allow posts from courtview or similar sites. Past experience has shown that such posts usually lead to a bash session directed at individuals or businesses. The intent of our policies is to keep public posts positive. As we have said, we recognize that not all businesses operate within the parameters of the law or accepted ethical standards. Members needing information of that kind are welcome to discuss such matters privately. We will delete it if it appears in our forums.

    Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

  6. #6
    Member Akgramps's Avatar
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    Hello Tonto this site is not to be confused with "24 Hour Campfire.com"

    PC correctness, rules & rule reminders, liability issues, cant allow this, wont allow that....ya da ya da, what a bunch of hooey.................!
    Aint it great to be in AK........

    Infractions...........WHO CARES.....?
    “Nothing worth doing is easy”
    TR

  7. #7
    Moderator bkmail's Avatar
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    I'll ask publicly since I haven't heard throuogh a PM yet, how many infractions can one get before the site police take me away?
    BK

  8. #8
    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkmail View Post
    I'll ask publicly since I haven't heard throuogh a PM yet, how many infractions can one get before the site police take me away?
    BK

    Ummmmm.........


    <grin>
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

  9. #9
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkmail View Post
    I'll ask publicly since I haven't heard throuogh a PM yet, how many infractions can one get before the site police take me away?
    BK
    The system automatically blocks posters who accumulate enough infraction points. Points drop off over time, and posting privileges are automatically restored. On the rare occasions when we remove someone from the site, that is done manually (usually by Brian, Icebear, Admin or myself). Such action happens in cases of repeated or egregious violations, or in cases where the actions of a poster constitute a threat to the site, its staff, or its members. Usually action of that kind happens only after a protracted exchange with the member. We prefer restoration over punitive action and are usually slow to ban. The exception is for obvious spammers, which are unceremoniously booted without comment. Over 10,000 of them last year, I think.

    To answer the other poster's remark about political correctness, all I can say is that we've had these rules for many years, and all of you have signed on under those standards. We are not going to change them when someone has problems with someone else.

    For those who doubt the wisdom or the success of this business model I would say that your continued presence here contests that point, as do our traffic stats. In the last four years our traffic has doubled, with over 7.1 million page views and over 800,000 unique visitors per month. Clearly, we are doing something correctly.

    Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

  10. #10
    Member JR2's Avatar
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    I have been involved in several other forums, including one that made lots of $$ and had 100K plus paying members. The rules we had were not always the way we wanted but it comes down to this. The forum is owned and operated by Mike, its not a democracy, there is no discussion of it, his rules his way.. if you don't like it start your own forum and put in all the hard work and you can have people post whatever you want.
    I for one don't have a problem with his rules... I have seen hundreds of posts by people asking about XYZ service and people sending emails, PM's or whatever about the business.
    2007 Kingfisher 2825 - Stor Fisk

    Civilization ends at the waterline. Beyond that, we all enter the food chain, and not always right at the top. -- Hunter S. Thompson

  11. #11
    Moderator bkmail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    The system automatically blocks posters who accumulate enough infraction points. Mike
    I'm asking how much is "enough"? You gave me 4 points today. These are my first.
    Thanks,
    BK

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkmail View Post
    I'm asking how much is "enough"? You gave me 4 points today. These are my first.
    Thanks,
    BK
    BK, sorry to intrude, but I'm pretty sure that Mike's post did explain this. My reading of what he wrote is there there is no set limit before as you say "the site police take you away", i.e., it is arbitrary and the decision made one on one in each situation. Additionally Mike describes this system's "timeout" function for infractors, which is based on the number of points you have. Since you have 4 now, you can see on your Settings page when they expire. Getting more before the ones you have expire can cause a "timeout" between you and this site.

  13. #13
    Moderator bkmail's Avatar
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    FamilyMan,
    No clear and concise answer I guess. Mike's post does not state a #. It's tough to abide by the rules when they aren't clearly defined.
    To our ADFG hunting and fishing regs as an example. If they were clear cut then we wouldn't have half the dicussions we do on interpretation.
    I'm done as this seems to be going south quickly. Mike and I have been exchanging e-mails multiple times today....good times.
    BK

  14. #14
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    sure is a tough on but I get it.. Its hard to not be able to express ones self even when it seems we should be allowed.. Its Mikes buisness and we should respect his wishes and rules. I own a buisness and if someone were to tell me how to run it i am sure I wouldnt be so nice about it.. At the end of the day I am simply just happy to have a place to see and read about Alaska specific topics and the rest I just leave for discussing with friends or find one of the many other forums out there in web world.... When there is a question concerning products or services I try to directly contact someone with experience and if I wanted info I would just make a post asking for folks to pm me with info.. I have through many a PM exchanged info both good and bad on products or buisnesses .. Its way to easy to ruin a buisnesses name with the net now a days even if the info is false...

  15. #15
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkmail View Post
    FamilyMan,
    No clear and concise answer I guess. Mike's post does not state a #. It's tough to abide by the rules when they aren't clearly defined.
    To our ADFG hunting and fishing regs as an example. If they were clear cut then we wouldn't have half the dicussions we do on interpretation.
    I'm done as this seems to be going south quickly. Mike and I have been exchanging e-mails multiple times today....good times.
    BK
    Send Brian M a PM and he can give you the rundown on the point system. We don't generally discuss forum discipline publicly, to protect everyone's privacy.

    The best way to never have to worry about this is of course to avoid posting things that violate our rules.

    Regards,

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

  16. #16
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default A word of clarification

    I spoke to one of the individuals who has responded to this thread, and he mentioned an issue we should probably address here.

    Because this site does not currently allow negative comments about a business or an individual, by deleting the negative comments and leaving the positive ones (of which, in this case, there have been plenty), an impression is created that "all is well". The intention of the site management is not to create an impression either way, but to simply provide a venue for discussion. But because we filter the discussion within the constraints of our rules, our readers often do not get the entire story.

    Without referencing a particular company, let me say that any business, regardless of what it is, can be either the greatest company on the planet, or a complete rip-off. It is not the responsibility of this site to provide a balanced, complete picture of what each business discussed here does or doesn't do. It is the responsibility of the consumer to do their own research before spending money on something that may not be what they wanted, or perhaps doing business with someone who does not deliver as expected or perhaps as advertised (again, not implicating anyone here, just illustrating a principle).

    Outdoors Directory in no way endorses the businesses discussed in our forums, nor do we recommend you shop elsewhere. Our official stance is neutrality. What we do suggest is to take what you read in our forums for what it is: the unvarnished opinions of people you probably don't know. If you are using this information to make purchase decisions, our recommendation is to collect what you can here, and directly contact other members privately to confirm before making a decision.

    The question of providing both positive and negative reviews on this site has come up before, and we are always looking for ways to meet the needs of our members. Currently we don't know of a solution that would both protect our site and allow a balanced reporting of the facts. And of course the "facts" are almost always clouded by the multiple sides to every story...

    Regards,

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

  17. #17
    Member ak_cowboy's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike. It's hard to get both sides when you can get sued for negative posts and nobody minds the positive ones lol

    sent from my igloo

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