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Thread: Hunting with 10mm; Glock 20.

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    Default Hunting with 10mm; Glock 20.

    Reading the 10mm ammo thread and it got me to thinking about hunting with mine, but I didn't want to derail it.

    I got a new 20SF a few weeks ago and it was kindof an impulse buy, so I didn't have an intended "job" for it when I bought it. I'm a big guy, but I still like to conceal a G30 or even a Sig 220, so not a concealment weapon. Right now I've got a Surefire on it and had it ported at Mag-Na-Port down the road from me, and it's a house gun right now.

    But if I wanted to hunt with it, what do you guys that hunt with 10mm, especially a G20, do to make them better in the field? 6" barrel? Adjustable sights?

    And I'm a bowhunter and have never hunted with a handgun, so what's an effective range for 10mm? I'm not looking to take it straight out and pursue moose with it, but if I wanted to shoot a deer and get the penetration I need, how far downrange is that?

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    As with all hunting, closer is better. Your effective range will depend largely on your skill. I try to get within 60 yards or so, I have made shots from farther, but dont go looking for them. A 6" barrel will give you a little more velocity, sights dont need to be adjustable. Trigger pull will have an effect when really concentrating on a longer shot. One of those little red dot sights, like the Burris Fastfire could be really slick for hunting, I havent tried one though. If you went out with the same mentality as if you were hunting with a bow, you shouldnt have any problems.

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    I have killed a couple of whitetail deer with the Glock 20 [6.6 in barrel] at about 40 yds out of a tree stand, using a 200 gr cast bullet got complete penetration. JMHO

    Rafe

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    Awesome. I'm going to have to give it a shot for sure.

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    If you are a successful bow hunter you are well within the range for iron sighted handguns. The ten works for deer/caribou/black bear size critters. I have a G20 SF myself and have taken coyotes, bobcat and deer here recently with the 200 hard cast. I use a six inch Lone Wolf barrel. As for sights you must get rid of those awful white outline rear and dot front. The front dot is ok but you need steel sights. I've been messing with Glocks almost constantly for the past few years and have found the 10-8 Performance or Heine sights to be the best. 10-8 has a great rear (its fixed, adjustable is not good on a hunting gun) and various height fronts of steel with options on the front. A white dot, tritium dot, brass bead or fiber optics. The brass beat is very fast and I am using it with my old eyes and it is very fast and still very accurate. I would get the U-notch rear with .140" wide notch and a .125" wide front. Generally .215" height front is right but I had to get the .235" height with the heavier bullets in the six inch barrel. The sights are mellonite coated black with 40LPI serrations, very effective. Mag-na-porting a 10 MM is unnecessary and no need to do the six inch. The Glock and the 10 MM are a good match and recoil is very mild. I shoot heavy 10 MM loads and have an older G21 converted to shoot 45 Super, 230 grains at 1100 fps from 4.6" barrel. ***** cat!! It purrs. Shoot the gun from shooting positions out to fifty yards and where you keep your shots in a four inch group is about your limit for a sure shot. I sit on the ground when calling 'yotes and kitties and rest over my knees. I've taken coyotes at about 85 yards with no problem but I've been shooting and hunting with handguns for over four decades. I can keep all shots on my 8" gong at 100 yards from this sitting position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    If you are a successful bow hunter you are well within the range for iron sighted handguns. The ten works for deer/caribou/black bear size critters. I have a G20 SF myself and have taken coyotes, bobcat and deer here recently with the 200 hard cast. I use a six inch Lone Wolf barrel. As for sights you must get rid of those awful white outline rear and dot front. The front dot is ok but you need steel sights. I've been messing with Glocks almost constantly for the past few years and have found the 10-8 Performance or Heine sights to be the best. 10-8 has a great rear (its fixed, adjustable is not good on a hunting gun) and various height fronts of steel with options on the front. A white dot, tritium dot, brass bead or fiber optics. The brass beat is very fast and I am using it with my old eyes and it is very fast and still very accurate. I would get the U-notch rear with .140" wide notch and a .125" wide front. Generally .215" height front is right but I had to get the .235" height with the heavier bullets in the six inch barrel. The sights are mellonite coated black with 40LPI serrations, very effective. Mag-na-porting a 10 MM is unnecessary and no need to do the six inch. The Glock and the 10 MM are a good match and recoil is very mild. I shoot heavy 10 MM loads and have an older G21 converted to shoot 45 Super, 230 grains at 1100 fps from 4.6" barrel. ***** cat!! It purrs. Shoot the gun from shooting positions out to fifty yards and where you keep your shots in a four inch group is about your limit for a sure shot. I sit on the ground when calling 'yotes and kitties and rest over my knees. I've taken coyotes at about 85 yards with no problem but I've been shooting and hunting with handguns for over four decades. I can keep all shots on my 8" gong at 100 yards from this sitting position.
    Murphy, do you feel like one should only fire the super-hot and/or hard-cast stuff out of an after-market rifled barrel? After reading countless comments on this, and reading about some kabooms, I bought both 4.6" and 6" KKM barrels just for some degree of caution. I personally recommend people getting an aftermarket barrel when shooting hot or HC ammo, but perhaps I am too cautious. My KKMs, like your LW barrels, shoot in my hands better than the stock barrel too, which is the clincher for me.

    OP: I am not a big fan of Magna-Porting, but that's just my personal preference--so take this with a grain of salt, but I replaced that awful stock plastic guide rod with a metal one, replaced the stock spring with a 22-lb one, and did not port the barrel: and I can't tell that my 20SF recoils much, if any, more than most of my .40 S&W guns shoot. And I only shoot the hot ammo--not the .40 S&W clone ammo.

    Within the next three weeks I am going to chrono the following out of both my 6" and 4.6" barrels (advertised MV in parentheses):
    Double Tap 155gr XPB (1,400fps)
    Buffalo Bore 180gr JHP (1,350 fps)
    CorBon 180gr BCSP (1,300fps)
    Double Tap 200gr WFNHC (1,300fps)
    Buffalo Bore 200gr FMJ FN (1,210 fps)
    Buffalo Bore 220gr HC FN (1,200 fps)
    Double Tap 230gr WFNHC (1,120fps)

    I will post my results.

    I have some of each stashed away for testing. Note that the BB 180gr rounds appear to actually meet or exceed the published MV, at least as confirmed several reports I have seen, including this: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

    Some people are suspicious of the Montana Gold bullet BB apparently is using with that loading, but most criticisms are that it is too hard, which probably is okay for a bullet going 1,250 fps (50 yds) to 1,400 fps (MV) our of a 6" bbl. That's got to be good on just about any non-dangerous game--especially wiht a double-lung shot if you are patient. It shots well out of my KKM barrels too. It's about as hot as most stock 180gr .44-Mag loads: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/41mag.html

    From what I've seen reported, all the HC loadings above fall a little or more short of the published MVs (I wil test for myself shortly), but they likely will penetrate better when hitting bone or large animals with claws and big teeth.

    One tester on the Glock-Talk forum, got the following average velocities on his chrono with five fired rounds out of a 4.6" bbl:

    Double Tap 155gr XPB = 1,282 fps
    Buffalo Bore 180gr JHP = 1,328 fps
    Double Tap 200gr WFNHC= 1,116 fps
    Buffalo Bore 200gr FMJ FN = 1,132 fps
    Buffalo Bore 220gr HC FN = 1,109 fps
    Double Tap 230gr WFNHC = 999 fps

    [As indicated above, I personally, would not shoot any of that in the stock Glock barrel].

    If those numbers are accurate, that 220gr BB HC round (which should be maybe 40-50 fps faster out of a 6" bbl) should do a pretty wicked job when hunting or protecting against just about anything. [For protection, with practice, you can fire accurately-enough about three rounds a second of that.]

    Each of those 220gr HC bullets (even though it's not called a "44 Mag" or ".45" or whatever) ought to penetrate at least a couple of feet into any animal. It won't make quite as big of a hole as some larger calibers, but it should penetrate more than enough on anything, and certainly should put down any deer on Earth, unless you miss it or hit it on one of its antlers.

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    MH, I get asked this question on here and other forums as well as on my own range when I'm shooting cast lead, any form of non jacketed ammo through any Glock. Well, what I do, I would not necessarily recommend for others. Not because it's dangerous or could damage equipment but because I would have no control over what they are doing or how well the bullet fits their bore or how hard the bullet is or anything else that must be considered to make and use effective, safe ammo to be fired in any gun. Those of us who have been making and using cast bullets in are pistols and revolvers since Elmer Keith was in grade school know very well some recipes and some techniques can result in an atrocious amount of lead in the bore after just a few shots. This will cause many problems, not the least is accuracy degradation and the worst of which could boost pressures beyond the safe level for many guns.

    Glock rifling is not rifling as we have come to know it as with lands and grooves but just a shaping of the bore in a smoothly contoured, twisted profile of internal bore dimensions. This serves to make a very smooth internal bore right off the mandrill and because of this and the fact that there are no lands and grooves offers significantly lower friction levels compared to conventional rifling, and generally provides for higher exit velocity for a given load. But, since the lead bullet cannot really bite into the rifling, an exact fit and very hard bullet surface is necessary to prevent the bullet from skipping or sliding over the rifling. This will leave copious quantities of lead smeared along the bore. Also, because of the polygonal rifling of the Glock it is difficult to slug the barrel to get the best dimensions for any bullet.

    Glock has no control over what lead composition or what BHN hardness level any bullet might be that a shooter might want to send down their barrels so their official policy is "no lead in Glock barrels." This is, of course, is the safest and most enforceable position they can take and causes for them the least amount of tort expense and warranty grief. Now enter the more than adequate supply of after market barrels, that are cut groove barrels, for the Glocks and quite honestly there is no reason to use cast lead, hard or soft in any Glock barrel.

    I have shot thousands of rounds of cast lead bullets from many different Glock pistol barrels. But Elmer and I share a common knowledge and interest in the use of hard cast lead bullets. When we order hard cast BHN number 18-22 bullets for our pistols, they are expensive, usually, nowadays, more than the standard run-of-the-mill jacketed bullets more readily available. So why do it? No really good reason considering that bullets must fit, bullets must be very hard, bullets must have correct lube, etc. etc. In other words, it isn't really worth the trouble and expense to go to when we can just order an after market barrel and in the case of the ten MM, we can add an inch or so and an additional bit of velocity which improves the effectiveness of the round for a hunting gun anyway.

    If lead is allowed to build up in a Glock barrel, or any barrel for that matter, it can boost pressures 20% to 30% above what the load would produce in a clean barrel. We can get the same dangerous results in a 44 magnum revolver. It may take many more rounds of ill fitting bullets than it does in a polygonal barrel that is skipping bullets but it can happen.

    As for the Glock Kabooms!! All of the mishaps that destroyed or damaged any Glock, or any other pistol, were the result of excess pressure. 99% of those were the fault of the handloader and their lack of knowledge about propellants, bullet weights, cartridge cases, pressures and general knowledge of hand loading processes. The ten MM SAAMI pressure is 37,500 PSI. The 44 magnum is spec'd at 36,000 psi. We are in a zone where very little tolerance is allowed anyway and many handloads I've pressure tested were about 45,000 PSI and by the way perfectly safe in my Glocks. No, they were not my loads just a recipes others were using. One of the half dozen or so ammo makers had at least one box, 20 rounds, that averaged about 48,000 PSI. I sent them the test data and they changed their load and offered me a job. Those appeared safe in my G20 SF. I don't think they would have been so safe with a barrel full of lead.

    Can you shoot lead (in its many forms and variations) in your Glock pistol? You can. You can get into trouble very quickly with them or with the right approach, you can produce very effective, safe ammo. If you are an experienced cast lead shooter, the same rules apply for the Glock barrels as do for Ruger or S&W barrels. If you have no successful experience with cast lead bullets in any gun, then by no means should you take on the extra challenges of the polygonal Glock barrels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
    ...and certainly should put down any deer on Earth, unless you miss it or hit it on one of its antlers.
    HA! That last comment just struck me as hilariou, whether it was meant to be or not.

    Great info guys. Thanks. My 20SF was sortof an inpulse buy at the gun store, but the gun itself has already turned into one of my favorite guns by accident. I've got a Milt Sparks IWB for it, and carry it and I'm going to carry it afield and would love to drop some four-legged animals with it. I'm going to get a 6" barrel for it, probably a LW, despite that wolf face on it.

    As for Mag-Na-Port'ing it; I agree....not needed, but it did make a difference at the range as far as how the gun behaves itself in your hand. I also just had my 30SF done there and it jumps less too. Again, needed?....no. But MNP is just a few blocks from my house and Ken does great work and has done other guns for me, so I just enjoy having guns done there.

    Happier and happier I listened to impulse and bought this gun. I was a .45 guy before and still am; but I'm quickly joining the 10MM cult and gladly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodiakfly View Post
    HA! That last comment just struck me as hilariou, whether it was meant to be or not.

    Great info guys. Thanks. My 20SF was sortof an inpulse buy at the gun store, but the gun itself has already turned into one of my favorite guns by accident. I've got a Milt Sparks IWB for it, and carry it and I'm going to carry it afield and would love to drop some four-legged animals with it. I'm going to get a 6" barrel for it, probably a LW, despite that wolf face on it.

    As for Mag-Na-Port'ing it; I agree....not needed, but it did make a difference at the range as far as how the gun behaves itself in your hand. I also just had my 30SF done there and it jumps less too. Again, needed?....no. But MNP is just a few blocks from my house and Ken does great work and has done other guns for me, so I just enjoy having guns done there.

    Happier and happier I listened to impulse and bought this gun. I was a .45 guy before and still am; but I'm quickly joining the 10MM cult and gladly...
    I have always though the 10 MM was a great idea and have owned several of them including a S&W 610, I think it was called an L frame (686) revolver with 6 inch barrel. I hunted with it and loved the thing, don't know why I don't still have it. I also owned a Ruger Blackhawk in 38-40 which came with a 40 S&W cylinder which quickly became a 10 MM cylinder. A great gun with a fully supported chamber. But I've got to tell ya, this Glock 20 SF is an absolute dream gun considering the compact size and the full performance I get from the thing. Oh the trigger could be better but I've polished and trimmed it and it is now a very manageable trigger. I added a trigger stop to the trigger housing, (drilled and tapped a hole and added a small allen head screw to stop the trigger bar cruciform at sear release) and it is very shootable. I can shoot it well and its a very light carry and as we know a ten MM is a powerful defensive pistol. Not the best for bears but it will put the kick azz smack down on an armadillo.
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    For those with LW barrels, is that silly wolf head on top just etched or printed on, or is it engraved to any depth in the metal? Meaning...could a guy polish it off there if he got one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodiakfly View Post
    For those with LW barrels, is that silly wolf head on top just etched or printed on, or is it engraved to any depth in the metal? Meaning...could a guy polish it off there if he got one?

    Use to be you could order it blank, for $10 more I think. Why go LW when you can have a KKM for a bit more!?! Just sayin

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    Eh just curious. I've never shot, or even handled either one of those. Is the KKM a hands-down better barrel? I don't mind the extra $40 if it's a better barrel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodiakfly View Post
    Eh just curious. I've never shot, or even handled either one of those. Is the KKM a hands-down better barrel? I don't mind the extra $40 if it's a better barrel.
    My LW barrel has been back for reaming already because the chamber was too short and ended up with a controlled kaboom. Now that it is back it will not feed reliably...actually never did. It doesn't like anything over 180 grain and unfortunately I run mostly 200-230. I would buy a KKM in a heartbeat over a Lone Junk. And no, you cannot polish the wolf off easily.


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    Well I finally got a chance to shoot my new KKM barrel for the 10 MM. This is a six inch barrel and very nice fitting with a good finish, stainless, of course. I had a few rounds of DT 200 WFN and they clocked 1231 ave. of the ten shots. I also had a few different handloads with 180 grain that hit about 1350 from this barrel. But the nicest part of this weekend shoot was several groups of about 2" at my 50 yard line. The Glock barrel never bettered 3" and usually 3 1/2 or so but I shot well yesterday. From the sitting position in what has become known as the the Hathcock sqwat I was able to shoot several 2 to 2.5" groups with both the hard cast and JHP loads. I do have a nice set of sights on this gun, a Heine rear plain black, serrated but with square .140" notch and a .125" square serrated front post, plain black. This seems to work well for me when there is adequate sunlight, in lower light or evening time I need something on the front to brighten it up some. Fortunately the Glock front sight is very easy to swap out and I have a set of .220" high by .125" wide fronts one with a .050" white dot the other plain black.

    I hate the standard Glock sights with that stupid white outlined rear. The front dot is ok but I can't have plastic sights on my pistols. I do like this Glock 20 SF and with a few of my mods it has become a very accurate and reliable carry gun. I got a chance to shoot another gen four G20 also. A fellow looked my up to fix his sights on his new gun. It seems his shots had a way of wandering down to the south east corner of his target. I think he went away impressed with my sights , he paid me for a set like them for his 10 MM. I guess he'll be shooting 2 inches at fifty soon enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodiakfly View Post
    Eh just curious. I've never shot, or even handled either one of those. Is the KKM a hands-down better barrel? I don't mind the extra $40 if it's a better barrel.
    I'm going to say that it is. I say it is more accurate and it does fit tighter in the lockup. The L/W is a good barrel but the edges are a little rough and seems to need a little break in. The accuracy is no better than the factory barrel and you can get a six 10 mm barrel from Glock for about $150 and you can shoot these Buffalo Bore and Double Tap hard cast loads in that barrel. Just take a wire brush to it for clean up and you likely won't shoot a lot of that ammo and certainly cleaning after 100 rounds of hard cast is good enough. It isn't like the gun is hard to take down and clean. It's a non issue for a box of ammo to sight in and find POI then carry with the second box of twenty. It's not a critical thing in spite of all the internet bs about Glock Kabooms.
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    Murph, I've been using the Redback One (made by 10-8 performance) combat pistol sights on all of my 'other' glocks, but desperately need to upgrade my 6" 20SF sights with something more suitable for hunting. The RB1 sights feature a .156 rear notch with a .125"x.215" front. Would a narrow rear notch be beneficial? I'm initially thinking 'yes' due to making longer distance shots (on average).

    Any reason to go to a .235 or even a .250 height front? Barring a suppressor, likely not, eh? I know the RB1 sights have enabled me to make hits much more easily at distance than the factory garbage...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunt_ak View Post
    Murph, I've been using the Redback One (made by 10-8 performance) combat pistol sights on all of my 'other' glocks, but desperately need to upgrade my 6" 20SF sights with something more suitable for hunting. The RB1 sights feature a .156 rear notch with a .125"x.215" front. Would a narrow rear notch be beneficial? I'm initially thinking 'yes' due to making longer distance shots (on average).

    Any reason to go to a .235 or even a .250 height front? Barring a suppressor, likely not, eh? I know the RB1 sights have enabled me to make hits much more easily at distance than the factory garbage...
    Generally the 10-8 Performance sights are designed to increase the speed of acquisition. Remember, we have to see the front sight thru the notch. The .156" wide notch is faster to acquire the front (visually) the .140" not quite as fast and the .125" the slowest but most accurate because it gives the best resolution. I find the .140" a good compromise and use that on my carry guns. For older eyes the wider notches help with clarity. I can use the .140" without my shooting lenses so I use that for hunting. I did use my shooting glasses with a bullseye target to test my loads and to sight in. 10-8 also sells those fronts with a .050" brass bead or white dot (and tritium for evenings out on the town) if those work for you. I find these older eyes need something more visible up front. I like the brass bead.

    The average run of the mill Glock generally uses the .215" high front sight with the 10-8 rear, regardless of notch width. This will give POI about 1 to 2" above POA at 25 yards. This is about right for a combat pistol and generally good for hunting but so few people can keep their shots in 6" at 25 so they can't tell if sights are good or bad. Some guns, particularly the long slide models will need the .235" high front and give about the same performance or you may want the .235" to get closer to that perfect POA/POI group. When shooting those heavier bullets in the big ten, recoil and barrel dwell time will cause the bullet to hit higher and a front sight change (taller sight) will be needed. I do not rest a pistol over bags, especially heavier recoiling guns because the recoil bounce and arms tension tend to spread groups out for me. I find I can shoot nice round groups by hanging the gun out at arms length with my arms around my bent knees while sitting on the ground. This is very stable and gives consistent round groups. A hunter needs to be able to shoot from field positions and keep shots in 2" at 25 yards as a minimum performance standard. This will give good hits out to 60 to 80 yards or so and well with in the kill range of this little pistol. I engage an 8" gong with regularity at a hundred yards down my rifle range with my hunting handguns. Prone is another good way to shoot a pistol if vegetation is such to allow it.

    On the full size Glock pistols sight about .007" of sight height variation gives about one inch change of impact at 25 yards. These 10-8 sights come to give about 3" adjustment between the .215" and the .235" and another 2" with the .250" sight. All rears from 10-8 are the same height. Other makers also offer similar fronts and rear sights. Heine is one of the best and I use them on a couple guns. Glock offers only rears of different heights, four total given in metric height measurement. Once we get those awful rear sights off the gun, and find the right steel rear such as Heine or 10-8, we can then find a front that suits are needs and even a couple for different types of shooting and can easily swap out the front sight with the little front sight nut driver. It is a three minute job. I don't use hard setting lock-tite just the 242 and then only when I have it configured the way it will stay. A snug turn of the nut driver will keep the sight in place. You may run into a situation where the front sights doesn't fit the slide cut out precisely with some movement or the sight might need fitting. You can file the tab of the sight, it's an oval shape, to get it to fit but it will remove that oxide finish but a little cold blue and oil will prevent any rust. I rarely ever have to fit 10-8 front sights and the rears fit better than most. Glocks rear dovetail seems to be very consistent but the front oval cut out seems to vary from gun to gun. Anyway I hope this ramble gives some useful information and helps with proper sighting on your Glock.
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  18. #18

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    MURPHY have you checked out the 9x25 dillon ? For your area it would make an excellent hunting round and the conversion barrel is all that's required as the 9x25 dillon is meerly a 10mm necked to 9mm, thereby using the same Glock mags. The velocity increase is good but the penetration is significant.
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    Murph, thanks for the reply. I think I will go with your advice and shoot for the .140 rear notch and the .235 height front. My experience agrees with you on the dovetail/front sight oval as well. I have installed maybe a dozen glock sights and have found the only issues that I've ran into are tight fitting or loose fronts.

    I tend to use a micro-drop of blue loctite on the front sight installation as I don't think that the red is quite necessary. What are your thoughts on re-using sights from one slide to another? I took some photos for a 'walk through' article on isntalling the RB1 sights. If you're bored you can watch my wife install her own sights on her own G19. She wasn't terribly confident when we first started but soon she realized how easy it was!

    http://www.thealaskalife.com/feature...pistol-sights/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodiakfly View Post
    Eh just curious. I've never shot, or even handled either one of those. Is the KKM a hands-down better barrel? I don't mind the extra $40 if it's a better barrel.
    I've tried both in my G20, and I did find the KKM to be better finished, inside and out. It also shot more accurately.

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