Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Scratching my head...

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    North Pole
    Posts
    105

    Question Scratching my head...

    I just bought an awesome CZ 375 H&H, all my reloading stuff, powder, Barnes 300gr TSXFB bullets, cases etc...

    I got everything working and started seating bullets. COL worked out to 3.555. I seated 3 bullets, measured them and they were all 3.554-3.556. Good to go!

    Large lock nut on die was tight and hex screw was tight. Set nut on top of seater was tight. Pushed 10 bullets and got a range of different sizes...from 3.60 to 3.446.

    I measured the bullets - all were withing .001 of being the same length. I measured the cases (Remington) and they were all the proper length. I find this difficult to explain, thus the question? It seems to me....if the cases were longer, the bullets were longer....it shouldn't make any difference because when you lock everything down you have a particular length dialed in regardless of the length of any of the components. Right??!!?? I use the same stroke and pressure when I seat the bullets. I inspected my press and all is tight and operating normally.

    Can anyone tell me where my mistake is or how to fix this problem or both? If you need more info let me know and I will fill you in.

    My wife is complaining about the bald spot I am creating scratching my head on this :P

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    2,083

    Default

    It seems that you did everything wright, so it's hard to tell. You measured the bullets and they were OK, too.

    I would remeasure the loaded ammo using a Stoney-Point gage. Measure the distance from the base of the case to the bullet's ogive, since distance to the lands is more critical. Is it possible for the case to be pushed down during the bullet seating process? If the overall bullet length (from base to tip) is on the short side, that should not be a problem. However, it could be if too long. What is the maximum length allowed for the .375 H&H?

  3. #3
    New member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    419

    Default 375

    I bet you are working with compressed loads using those long 300 TSX's. What powder are you using? How many grains? I assume you are not crimping?

    Compressed loads will goof with your seating depth. Some variation is normal, but yours seems excessive.

  4. #4
    Member Doug in Alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Check you neck tension. I just set OAL for my .338 using the 250 gr. TSX bullets. I could rotate the bullets by hand and actually pull them out if I tried hard enough. A Lee FCD is on the way from Midway. I plan to crimp very, very lightly, just enough to hold the bullet in place. I've never had this problem with Nosler Partition bullets, also took the die apart to check and make sure the expander ball was clean. Go figure. I read an article on the web that was written for Safari Club International about a problem loading the .375 with slightly compressed loads and the bullets being pushed out. The author's solution was to use a FCD.

    I loaded two boxes of test rounds for my wife's 7mm-08 today. One box of 120 gr. TSX bullets and one box of 160 gr. TSX bullets. One load using 4350 was compressed and I had no problems at all. All bullets for her rifle were seated tightly.
    Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

  5. #5

    Default Neck tension

    Doug,

    It would be better if you had proper neck tension instead of holding the bullets in place with a light crimp only. When you fire your rifle, the bullets could get pressed further into the case under recoil, causing a potentially harmful amount of excess pressure. Better to mike the diameter of your expander ball to see if it is proper diameter. If not, get another that mikes the proper diameter. If you have used this die set successfully in the past on the same cases, then you have a brass or bullet problem, probably the cases.

  6. #6
    Member Doug in Alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mauserboy View Post
    Doug,

    It would be better if you had proper neck tension instead of holding the bullets in place with a light crimp only. When you fire your rifle, the bullets could get pressed further into the case under recoil, causing a potentially harmful amount of excess pressure. Better to mike the diameter of your expander ball to see if it is proper diameter. If not, get another that mikes the proper diameter. If you have used this die set successfully in the past on the same cases, then you have a brass or bullet problem, probably the cases.
    I've used this die a billion times. I've tried new brass, used brassed, and brass I've loaded successfully in the past. I've disassembled the die and checked the expander ball for cleanliness, everything is good. Perhaps the bullets.
    Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

  7. #7
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Compressed loads would only make them grow in length after they are seated. Clearly here you have some that shrink in length. A seating stem in any die rests on the bullet ogive at a point determined by the diameter of the bullet. Bullets with the same length and ogive will be seated to the same depth. Bullets with different ogives will be seated to different lengths.

    It is unlikely that the bullets vary in length or ogive radius.

    Is your seating die the type with the sliding sleeve for a seating stem? If so it could be sticking instead of freely sliding up to touch the seating screw stop, which you set at the top of the seater die. I have a new set of Hornady's that are made like that, and at first would not freely slide to the stop. It had little burrs on the inside. There are others makers of dies that seat like this, also. If it is a standard Redding/RCBS seater type it may have grease or crud in the seater body which can vary the depth.

    You have a lot of variation in seating depth here, .154". I think the OAL for the H&H is 3.600". If you've decided to seat to 3.555" find one that is at that length and cycle it through the seater die several times and measure it each time to see if it is getting pushed down shorter. If so the die is not working correctly. Were the 3 rounds you loaded to test charged or just dummies? If they are dummies use them to seat and reseat. If they don't move, it must be compressed powder. You may be actually seating to the 3.446" dimemsion and compressed powder is pushing the bullet up, but if you loaded some dummies that were 3.555" then that is your setting and it us OK.
    The only way they could get shorter is for the stem depth to vary, check that closely.

    BTY if the powder is compressed a lot, an FCD will not hold them, even if some guy wrote that in an article. The best way is to change powder or bullets. Of curiosity, what is you powder and charge weight for this 300 TSXFB? Those bullets are really long and powder charges must be reduced to get them in the case. That's why TSX's can't be pushed to normal H&H velocities, no room for powder. The only powder that works is the H414 or W760 ball. It takes up less space. Let us know what you find out, and good luck.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  8. #8
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug in Alaska View Post
    Check you neck tension. I just set OAL for my .338 using the 250 gr. TSX bullets. I could rotate the bullets by hand and actually pull them out if I tried hard enough. A Lee FCD is on the way from Midway. I plan to crimp very, very lightly, just enough to hold the bullet in place.
    That won't work. Recoil will move them. If you can rotate the bullet by hand in the case you have a much bigger problem than can be fixed by a FCD.

    You say check your neck tension like it can be adjusted, The sizer sizes the neck down and the expander button brings it back to the correct size, .001"-.002" smaller than the bullet, in this case, .336" to .337", it almost seems as if your cases were not sized. Has anything changed since your last successful batch?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  9. #9
    Member Doug in Alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    That won't work. Recoil will move them. If you can rotate the bullet by hand in the case you have a much bigger problem than can be fixed by a FCD.

    You say check your neck tension like it can be adjusted, The sizer sizes the neck down and the expander button brings it back to the correct size, .001"-.002" smaller than the bullet, in this case, .336" to .337", it almost seems as if your cases were not sized. Has anything changed since your last successful batch?
    I realize neck tension can't be adjusted, just wanted to know if he could rotate or pull the bullets by hand.

    Cases have been sized and nothing has changed except the brand of bullets.
    Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

  10. #10
    Member Doug in Alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    417
    Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

  11. #11
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug in Alaska View Post
    I realize neck tension can't be adjusted, just wanted to know if he could rotate or pull the bullets by hand.

    Cases have been sized and nothing has changed except the brand of bullets.
    Just another reason to use good bullets, I guess.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    North Pole
    Posts
    105

    Default

    I am using 70 grains of RL-15 powder and got my 3.555 measurement by smoking a bullet and checking contact with the Lands as the Barnes book suggests. Since the Barnes book does not give a C.O.L., I went with what it said to get the best overall COL for the gun.

    I don't "think" I have a powder compression problem. I cannot twist the bullet once it is seated no matter how much I try.

    The dies are brand new out of the box. Brass is never-been-fired Remington (no Winchester Brass available in Fairbanks currently).

    I will disassemble the seating die and look at it closely to see if it is working right or made correctly.

    What I found by searching through the internet is exactly what you said Murphy....MAX COL is 3.60.

    I will investigate and report back what I find. Thanks for all the answers...I learned something from all these replies.

    PS. Are you saying Barnes are not good bullets Murphy? Please explain if so (more to learn)
    Last edited by KirovPDR; 05-06-2007 at 21:58. Reason: added a PS

  13. #13
    New member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    419

    Default Barnes

    I have had similar problems w/ barnes and poor neck tension. Nothing so loose that I could turn by hand though. I dont think a lee FCD would cure this.

    Quote: Murphy
    "You may be actually seating to the 3.446" dimemsion and compressed powder is pushing the bullet up"

    I have had this happen with .375 270 grain TSX's and RL15

    I would seat a dummy, then seat one w/ a charge. If there is a difference then you are only seating the bullet to the base of the powder. RL 15 is an extruded powder, so pretty hard to compress, but I guess could be done to a lesser degree. Compressing ball powders can be dangerous. If you shake the cartridge and cant hear the kernels rattling, your probably compressed.

    I know 74 grains of RL 15 in fire formed brass win brass and 270 TSX is just starting to compress w/ a OAL of 3.600 when not using a drop tube.

    So, 70 grains of RL15 in new (not fire formed=less capacity) rem brass (rem brass=less case capacity than win) with a longer bullet seated deeper, is probably going to equal compression.

    I would probably seat them a little further out, like 3.600 or using once fired brass might give you the case capacity you need. You could also try a faster burning powder or a shorter bullet. Good luck.

  14. #14
    Member Doug in Alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    417

    Default

    I talked with tech support at Barnes and RCBS today and both suggested using the Lee FCD or removing the expander and chucking it up in a drill motor, taking a piece of fine emery cloth and removing about .001 if the diameter wasn't between .001 and .002 less than .338. My expander measures .3365 which should be good. The guys at Barnes told me that the Lee FCD squeezes the entire neck down rather than creating a roll or taper crimp and won't affect accuracy. FWIW
    Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

  15. #15

    Talking Here's a good one

    Last year, we were loading a 200 gr Barnes X ( I think they've discontinued that bullet) and was having the same problem of bullets having very little neck tension. Drove us crazy, because these dies loaded great in the past with no problems. We then tried the 210 gr barnes tsx and they loaded fine with great neck tension, but everytime we tried another 200gr, same problem...loose bullet. I then miked the 200 grain, and found out that the base miked correctly, but the shank was undersize, thus the base fit tight, but the rest of bullet was barely touching neck of case...even our local smiths hadn't heard of that one, and it was just a fluke we found out, so you may want to check your bullets, never know. Thanks, ciao.

  16. #16
    New member George's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    286

    Default Lee fact. crimp dies

    Interesting a Barnes rep would say that the Lee FCD crimps the entire neck down??? I don't use them for every cartridge but the ones I have do not crimp the entire neck just the last 1/16" or so via a four petaled, spring loaded collet that squeezes the very end of the case mouth into the bullet crimping groove. It gives somewhat the same appearance as a factory crimp and functions about the same way.

  17. #17
    New member George's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    286

    Default 2 different Lee dies

    May be confusion about types of dies. The Lee factory crimp die (FCD) uses a 4 pronged collet to crimp... the Lee collet neck sizer die uses a multi-pronged collet to squeeze the case neck down around a mandrel. Two different things

  18. #18
    New member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    419

    Default

    Some food for thought,

    Pretty good discussion going on at 24 hr campfire, regarding TSX's, compressed loads, and seating depth.

  19. #19
    Member 8x57 Mauser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Southeast Alaska
    Posts
    513

    Default Comparable experience

    KirovPDR,

    I had an OAL variation problem with some 180 grain TSXBT in my '06.

    The only way to describe it was that starting to move the press handle down from the top of the bullet seating stroke felt like it was sticking a bit.

    After further thinning my hair with a great deal of head-scratching, I decided the seater plug was grabbing the bullet while seating it, and that moving the press handle down pulled the bullet partway before the seater let go.

    I cleaned the seater. No change. I gave it a polish with the finest emery cloth I could buy. No dice.

    So out of desperation I sent off to RCBS for a custom seater plug. $15. Problem solved.

  20. #20
    Member Doug in Alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 8x57 Mauser View Post
    KirovPDR,

    I had an OAL variation problem with some 180 grain TSXBT in my '06.

    The only way to describe it was that starting to move the press handle down from the top of the bullet seating stroke felt like it was sticking a bit.

    After further thinning my hair with a great deal of head-scratching, I decided the seater plug was grabbing the bullet while seating it, and that moving the press handle down pulled the bullet partway before the seater let go.

    I cleaned the seater. No change. I gave it a polish with the finest emery cloth I could buy. No dice.

    So out of desperation I sent off to RCBS for a custom seater plug. $15. Problem solved.
    I just had the same problem this morning while attempting to load the 250 gr. TSX bullet for my .338 Win Mag. Is the custom seater plug something that has to be machined specifically for the bullet used? How long did it take to delivered? When seating the bullet, it feels like the bullet is plenty tight when the base is set into the neck but once it starts to seat the ringed area the pressure needed on the press handle becomes much less. Almost as if the bullet diameter in this area is less, but both areas measure about the same, maybe a little less in the ringed area, perhaps .001. Did you experience the same thing?
    Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •