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Thread: "Hi, I'm from Montana, and I'll be your Alaskan Guide today"

  1. #1
    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
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    Lightbulb "Hi, I'm from Montana, and I'll be your Alaskan Guide today"

    Anyone else see the myriad levels of hypocrisy and blatant Moose Nuggets, in that sentence?
    Seems pretty obvious.

    With the current state of some of our fisheries, coupled with a preference for Local Hire, why is our State being represented by, and our resources profited from, Non-Residents? It might be some decent midwinter banter to discuss viable alternatives that could
    address some of these, and other related, issues.

    While I'm aware it's illegal to ban non resident hire, why aren't the requirements more stringent than simply an extra $50 for a non res guide license?
    Certainly there are members here more in the know. My question is why aren't there in place certain criteria that makes it more restrictive for these "guides"?
    Raise the price significantly and economically non viable to obtain? Require certification after testing, on knowledge of basic Alaskan safety and environmental concerns, fish identification, bear safety, waste management, etc. etc. ?

    I know if I ever travel to New Zealand, I'm hiring a local, hopefully Maori, guide. Alaska should likewise be represented by those that live here, and value our Home. We require a year of residency to receive a PFD, why aren't such standards applied to those who utilize not only our resource(s), but our very Name, and then scurry South before the snow flies?
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    Member ak_cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Hi, I'm from Montana, and I'll be your Alaskan Guide today"

    Don't you have to be a resident to be a hunting guide? It should be the same for fishing.

    sent from my igloo

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak_cowboy View Post
    Don't you have to be a resident to be a hunting guide? It should be the same for fishing. sent from my igloo
    Negative. Non Res Hunting Guides abound, they even write and sell books too!





    Sent from in front of Pandoras Box
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaHippie View Post
    Negative. Non Res Hunting Guides abound
    Indeed. And non-resident hunting guides can legally guide for brown bear, sheep, and goat...even though they can't legally hunt those species themselves. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

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    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Indeed. And non-resident hunting guides can legally guide for brown bear, sheep, and goat...even though they can't legally hunt those species themselves. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

    About as much sense a non res fishing guide that can't tell the difference between a Sockeye and a Coho, or has never seen the Northern Lights.....
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    This is the only thing about living up here that can make me fly hot. About 7-8 years ago I got into it with Tony Russ on this forum and almost got banned!

    About half the guys in my high school class(Yea! Service '76) wanted to be fishing or hunting guides. Nobody ever knew how to get started. It upsets me to no end when I run across a fishing or hunting guide who LIVES out of state.
    I may be slow, but I get where I'm going!

  7. #7
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    Default out of state..

    Is a non-resident having a hunting or fishing guide license any worse that a non-resident having a commercial fishing permit? Or how about the fish processors or tourism industry hiring so many out of state and even non-citizens? Where does all the non-resident stuff stop?

    What the heck - let's just just rid of all the guides and resolve the problem up front! If you aren't smart enough to catch a fish or kill an animal you shouldn't be in woods or in the water anyway.

    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Here's my bona fide's: I've lived in alaska since 85, except for a brief stint in michigan in 02 and 03. I also guide, mainly C and R fly fishing for trout. I mix in a little king and silver fishing; but very little. All on rivers and lakes I've fished since I moved here at age 12.

    I think there's a difference between nonresidents. There are true trout bums in the fly fishing world who follow open water. They reside in Montana or Washington, where there is some open water year round, and guide the winter runs of salmon and steelhead. They move back here when the water opens again, and fish it hard from May-September or early October. They aren't here enough to gain residency, but are as knowledgeable about the fisheries they guide in as many locals who live here year round. They may even be better rounded as fishermen as they do more of a particular technique in their home waters than we use in Alaska.

    If I were fly fishing an Alaskan river, I would much rather do it with an out of state guide who understands fly fishing and the waters he is standing in, than an instate guide who is mainly a bait chucker, knows very little of fly fishing, but will hand a person a "fly rod" if they want to fly fish. This scenario happens too.

    Ideally, if I were a client, my guide would be resident fly fisherman who is an expert in the techniques needed for the species and waters we're fishing, and be able to teach me enough during the day to put me on fish, and show me that not only is he working hard, he's working smart. If things don't work out with the fish, I like to know the guide was in water he knows and understands, I had the best shot possible at catching fish, but it just wasn't our day.

    There is no competency requirement to be a fishing guide in Alaska. There is no knowlege requirement; a guide isn't required to know the regulations, know species id, or even how to fish or catch fish. He just needs to know first aid and cpr, and if coast guard certified, have experience boating. If a guide demonstrates a good knowledge of the waters he is fishing, and the techniques necessary to produce fish from those waters, I have no beef with his residency. Being a resident doesn't automatically qualify one as an expert, just as being a non resident doesn't automatically make a person a complete rube.

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    Way to twist again are Chubby Checker? What happened to make you act this way TV?

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    I will add that I have had awful experiences with a couple non resident salmon guides. One was on the Kenai. But I've had some bad experiences fishing around resident guides, too. If a guy's a jerk, it doesn't matter where he's from; it does tend to grate on me more if he's an out of state jerk than if he's a local jerk. If he's a great fisherman, and a great guide, it doesn't matter where he's from either.

  11. #11

    Default "Hi, I'm from Montana, and I'll be your Alaskan Guide today"

    I believe that the argument is that instituting a residency requirement may violate the federal constitution (interstate commerce, equal protection?). Don't know for sure but I believe it is the same reason there is no residency requirements for commercial fishing permits.

    In southcentral AK at least, the overwhelming majority of commercial fishermen and guides are residents.

    78% of UCI commercial permit holders are residents. The number of permits has been limited since 1974.

    On the Kenai river, 71% of the fishing guides are residents. Furthermore, of the Kenai river guides that have been registered for more than 10 years, 86% are residents

    Of the 41 new Kenai River guides in 2011, over 68% were nonresidents.

    I know this data is of only of the Kenai, but I think it illustrates the obvious - while nonresidents may be lured to Alaska to earn a living fishing or hunting, they often never leave.

    I think the bigger question is, why don't we have some sort of sensible limit on the number of fishing and hunting guides in our state, divided up by areas (similar to commercial fishing). It would be healthy for the industry and the resource, while providing existing guides with barriers to new entrants into their market (Business 101), and providing them with some sort of tangible asset (the permit) - perhaps a retirement nestegg for many.

    It would also more than likely lead to a higher caliber of service and knowledge due to the cost of entry and lower number of new participants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithtb View Post
    I believe that the argument is that instituting a residency requirement may violate the federal constitution (interstate commerce, equal protection?). Don't know for sure but I believe it is the same reason there is no residency requirements for commercial fishing permits.
    I believe you're right, and since the existence of non-resident permits can't be prevented nor limited in quantity (compared to the resident permit), and they "solved" the issue: making non-res fishermen here pay a whole lot more than we do.

    So what if a non-res guide had to pay a whole lot more for his guide permit than a resident?

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    So what if a non-res guide had to pay a whole lot more for his guide permit than a resident?
    If I recall correctly, there was a lawsuit regarding non-resident commercial crewmember license fees a few years back, and the courts ruled that non-resident fees could not be exorbitant. I don't recall the details, but do know that the state was on the hook for a substantial refund of what was deemed to be excessive non-resident license fees. I assume the same precedent would apply to non-resident guide fees.

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    Brian, your are correct and it was not just crewmember license it is all commercial licenses. The state is having to refund big $.

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    Default would 6 be exhorbitant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    If I recall correctly, there was a lawsuit regarding non-resident commercial crewmember license fees a few years back, and the courts ruled that non-resident fees could not be exorbitant. I don't recall the details, but do know that the state was on the hook for a substantial refund of what was deemed to be excessive non-resident license fees. I assume the same precedent would apply to non-resident guide fees.
    Completely agree that exorbitant would draw fire from many groups and would not do. Maybe only like 6 times higher, like Alaska currently does with its fishing licenses for these same two user groups.

    MGH, is commercial licensing governed by different people than people licensing? Probably so eh? AK for people and sport licenses, and the feds for the commercial stuff? (I'm asking.)

  16. #16

    Default "Hi, I'm from Montana, and I'll be your Alaskan Guide today"

    The state gets the money for limited entry commercial permits and crewmember licenses. The limited entry commission is a state entity I believe. I also think that when limited entry went into effect, ADFG commfish division ceased being funded by license sales. It is my understanding that sport fish is still funded by sport license sales. It seems this could lead to a natural resistance to any sort of limits.

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    It's all part of ADF&G ones the left and the other the right. I wounder if they can clap?

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    Member TWB's Avatar
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    Default "Hi, I'm from Montana, and I'll be your Alaskan Guide today"

    Kinda pisses me off when a nonresident big game guide can apply a permit in ANWR and have all air taxis lock him and only him into an area.

    Pisses me off when I want to hire someone to fly me into a bay on Kodiak but he's on a non resident guides payroll to only fly in clients.

    I'm far from selfish but why should I ever be limited by someone who is only in Alaska for profit during a few seasons.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

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    Quote Originally Posted by TWB View Post
    Kinda pisses me off when a nonresident big game guide can apply a permit in ANWR and have all air taxis lock him and only him into an area.

    Pisses me off when I want to hire someone to fly me into a bay on Kodiak but he's on a non resident guides payroll to only fly in clients.

    I'm far from selfish but why should I ever be limited by someone who is only in Alaska for profit during a few seasons.
    I lived in Kodiak for 4 years never had any problems getting a air taxi to fly to any place that I hired them to take us to. Only problems were weather related. I would love to know the name of any air taxis you had any problems with.

  20. #20

    Default be careful what you wish for

    I just collected 30 grand for the last time it was tried. Now I`m a res go figure

    http://www.carlsonrefund.com/

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